Russian Military Doctrine - Page 6

Stan187 · 01-25-2007, 16:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

That was directed at Mr First. Your answer was sufficient.

Gotcha!

Archer · 01-25-2007, 16:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

Kind of like the SA-6/Akash.

Actually there are significant differences between the two systems. The basic structure of the missile is based on the SA-6 configuration, but it uses a different propellant/ internal schema. Nor did India receive Russian assistance for the SA-6 project- its somewhat of a touchy subject in Indo-Russian relations, as the Russians are never too happy about anyone even making anything similar to their products on their own, but without kowtowing and taking permission etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janes Missile and Rockets

The 6.5 m long, 700 kg Akash is similar in general appearance to the Russian SA-6 `Gainful' but with more advanced technology.

It uses a 4.5 second burn HTPB solid propellant rocket booster motor to accelerate to around 510 m/s (M1.5) whereupon an advanced 30 second burn ramjet rocket sustainer cuts in for the remainder of the M2.8 to 3.5 20 g acceleration powered flight phase. The ramjet sustainer system utilises a gas generator which is fed by a high-energy composite solid propellant with a double-base formulation. This uses finely powdered magnesium as the metallic fuel component rather than
the more usual aluminium fuel additive and, it is believed, nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine as the other components.

The oxidisers are atmospheric oxygen and probably ammonium perchlorate. The booster and sustainer rocket motor cases are flow-formed from maraging steel and titanium alloy respectively. Maximum engagement range is stated to be 27,000 m with the guidance system being, in the first phase of the flight, inertial with mid-course radio command updates from the radar and then semi-active homing for the terminal part as the microwave seeker is switched on 3 to 4 seconds before impact. The warhead weight is 60 kg with a lethal radius of 20 m. A pulse-Doppler radar proximity/contact fuze assembly is fitted. Minimum engagement range is said to be 5,000 m but the system is being re-engineered to reduce this to 1,000 m. Maximum engagement altitude is 18,000 m and minimum altitude 30 m.

The realization of the ramjet tech and challenges almost crippled the Akash program acc. to its developers at DRDL, till it was finally cleared in 2001-02.

Stan187 · 01-25-2007, 17:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruskiy

Maybe, but they are wrong from any side of the coin....

Uhhh.... what? I have no idea what you just said.

MrFirst · 01-25-2007, 18:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

Russia is spending a big portion of her defense dollars on new ICBM's, and the conventional forces will continue on in a state of disrepair.

I would say that Putin has promised the Russians a revitalized Russian Empire, and this is the only way to deliver something today. And I agree with RickUSN that making NATO and the US the bad guys is the only way Putin can justify the plan.

The losers are the Russian people, spending large amounts of money on weapons that can't be used.

Russian and US nukes are set by treaty. Russia's actual capability has fallen well below the allowed levels. Putin would have been a lot smarter to use the unbalance to argue for further reductions in strategic weapons, rather than spending huge amounts of money to try to catch back up. Then take that money and modernize the conventional forces and develop some good missile defense to level the playing field back up.

Putin would be the complete fool if he decided to reduce the nuclear weapon while the Americans are creating their anti-missile system. The value of modern conventional weapon is very-very high. In case of Russia, having its own nuclear technologies, nuclear industry, rocket plants – all that needed to produce new ICBMs – this is the easier and cheaper way to guarantee the impossibility of ANY external attack. While Russia is able to make a retaliatory strike this situation will be kept. Despite what conventional weapon the opposite side has.
Putin doesn’t need to make NATO and the US the bad guys. The war against Yugoslavia strongly affected consciousness of the Russians. Russians realized that the US is not only democracy but the dangerous and unpredictable country that does what it wants and how it wants.

highsea · 01-25-2007, 18:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

Putin would be the complete fool if he decided to reduce the nuclear weapon while the Americans are creating their anti-missile system.

He wouldn't have to reduce anything- just pressure the US to reduce to a comparable level. This would give Putin the "moral high-ground" as they say, and put the onus on the US.

But he doesn't do this- he spends money on more ICBM's, when what's really needed is modernization to the conventional forces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

The value of modern conventional weapon is very-very high. In case of Russia, having its own nuclear technologies, nuclear industry, rocket plants – all that needed to produce new ICBMs – this is the easier and cheaper way to guarantee the impossibility of ANY external attack.

It guarantees nothing. This is the fallacy. Russia is completely vulnerable to attacks and harassments that fall below the nuclear threshold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

While Russia is able to make a retaliatory strike this situation will be kept. Despite what conventional weapon the opposite side has.

MAD? When you don't have anywhere near the levels needed to make that work? The US has had first-strike advantage for many years now, don't you know? Do you really think Russia could mount a credible second-strike deterrence today?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

Putin doesn’t need to make NATO and the US the bad guys. The war against Yugoslavia strongly affected consciousness of the Russians.

So why the demonization of the US and NATO?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

Russians realized that the US is not only democracy but the dangerous and unpredictable country that does what it wants and how it wants.

Right, like preventing genocides, promoting democracies, and other unsavory bahaviors like that...

MrFirst · 01-25-2007, 19:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

He wouldn't have to reduce anything- just pressure the US to reduce to a comparable level. This would give Putin the "moral high-ground" as they say, and put the onus on the US.
But he doesn't do this- he spends money on more ICBM's, when what's really needed is modernization to the conventional forces.

Put the onus on the US? Are you serious, Highsea? If the US just throw off this “onus” like the anti-missile treaty of 1972, and what Russia will be with? It seems Putin believes Russia needs something more essential for arguing and pressing the US than "moral high-ground”. I think he is right. Yes, Russia needs the modernization to the conventional forces but less than nuclear arsenal’s maintenance. There is no direct threat for Russia from any country armed by conventional weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

It guarantees nothing. This is the fallacy. Russia is completely vulnerable to attacks and harassments that fall below the nuclear threshold.

If it guarantees nothing, suggest your government to nuclear disarm. What the US’s nuclear weapon for? It’s not needed. US have a lot of conventional forces and absolutely protected, they don’t need nuces. Yes?
Russia after you...

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

MAD? When you don't have anywhere near the levels needed to make that work? The US has had first-strike advantage for many years now, don't you know? Do you really think Russia could mount a credible second-strike deterrence today?

Yes, I really think. Nobody hasn’t tried to make sure in converse yet. Do you really think that the US remained unpunished and not damaged if they attack Russia? Are you sure in your safety?

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

So why the demonization of the US and NATO?
Right, like preventing genocides, promoting democracies, and other unsavory bahaviors like that...

That’s not a demonization. Only a sober view on US policy. The bombardment of Yugoslavia killed the last romantics of US-Russian friendship. Perestoika is ended.

MrFirst · 01-25-2007, 19:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan187

Russification in Georgia imported Russians themselves into Georgia, and made it impossible for Georgians to advance unless the spoke Russian, assumed parts of Russian culture, etc.

I was talking to the chief of the Equality Institute a couple of days ago, who is Georgian. The fact that I was able to speak Russian with him, or to probably any other successful person in Georgia, is a legacy of the Russification. People couldn't be successful without russifying themselves, because of the discrimination that they faced if they didn't.

(My excuses to Highsea…)

OK, as I understood from your words, the Russians made the Georgians who wanted to get advance in USSR to learn Russian language. That’s horrible, you’re right. Very cruel discrimination. Even though it was impossible to get advance in Georgia not being Georgian. The Georgians like to tell about how Russians discriminated them this way and that though they have independence already for more than 15 years. This is more than enough to forget Russian and the Russians and speak only Georgian with Georgians. But if you believe this was a cruel discrimination – let it be. This is a very convenient excuse for crazy Georgian policy.

Alex_Ivanov · 01-25-2007, 19:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan187

Do you ANY basis for saying something like that WHATSOEVER??

Every year our industrial output grows, share of mining industries reduces, export of products grows, export of raw materials reduces. If you wish, I can post some figures here. During last 6 years situation hasn't changed fundamentally, actually it has changed only a little bit, but tendency is clear. Today we have good basis for breakthrough. Nobody knows future, but I feel rather optimistic.

Stan187 · 01-25-2007, 19:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov

Every year our industrial output grows, share of mining industries reduces, export of products grows, export of raw materials reduces. If you wish, I can post some figures here.

Please do post some figures if you wouldn't mind.

Stan187 · 01-25-2007, 20:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

(My excuses to Highsea…)

OK, as I understood from your words, the Russians made the Georgians who wanted to get advance in USSR to learn Russian language. That’s horrible, you’re right. Very cruel discrimination. Even though it was impossible to get advance in Georgia not being Georgian. The Georgians like to tell about how Russians discriminated them this way and that though they have independence already for more than 15 years. This is more than enough to forget Russian and the Russians and speak only Georgian with Georgians. But if you believe this was a cruel discrimination – let it be. This is a very convenient excuse for crazy Georgian policy.

Are we speaking the same language? They didn't just make them learn Russian, they setup a state-sponsored system of advancement based on racial discrimination and cultural suppression. They did this not only to Georgians, but to all non-Russian ethnic minorities. That includes all of my family as well.

Oh wow they've had independence for 15 years, so I guess you can remove hundreds of years of an institutionalized legacy in 15 years with ease!

In America its called human rights. In Russia its called... not-available.

Stan187 · 01-25-2007, 20:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

Putin would be the complete fool if he decided to reduce the nuclear weapon while the Americans are creating their anti-missile system. The value of modern conventional weapon is very-very high. In case of Russia, having its own nuclear technologies, nuclear industry, rocket plants – all that needed to produce new ICBMs – this is the easier and cheaper way to guarantee the impossibility of ANY external attack. While Russia is able to make a retaliatory strike this situation will be kept. Despite what conventional weapon the opposite side has.
Putin doesn’t need to make NATO and the US the bad guys. The war against Yugoslavia strongly affected consciousness of the Russians. Russians realized that the US is not only democracy but the dangerous and unpredictable country that does what it wants and how it wants.

Your whole argument is fallacious. A missile shield with a few interceptors is not designed for that, it overcome a total strike by the Russians. The value of modern conventional weaponsnd armies is very high, indeed. The value of nuclear weapons is only as a deterrent against all out war and all out invasion. Unless Russia wants to commit suicide, it ain't makin' nuclear strikes on anyone, and same with the US.

Yugoslavia simply showed that the Russians would not be able to use the UNSC to have nothing happen, and to let genocide continue. Our system of government is the most predictable in the world, because of check and balances and separation of powers. We're only dangerous to idiots who choose to threaten us.

highsea · 01-25-2007, 22:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

Put the onus on the US? Are you serious, Highsea? If the US just throw off this “onus” like the anti-missile treaty of 1972, and what Russia will be with?

The US left the ABM Treaty under the terms of that Treaty. We didn't just throw it off. We notified Russia in advance of our intentions, and Bush and Putin discussed it privately.

These are defensive systems, and we could have developed them in secret, but we didn't. And Russia is developing them too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

It seems Putin believes Russia needs something more essential for arguing and pressing the US than "moral high-ground”. I think he is right. Yes, Russia needs the modernization to the conventional forces but less than nuclear arsenal’s maintenance. There is no direct threat for Russia from any country armed by conventional weapons.

I don't know what you think Russia should be "arguing and pressing the US" for. Russia seems to have her hands full locally, if you ask me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

If it guarantees nothing, suggest your government to nuclear disarm. What the US’s nuclear weapon for? It’s not needed. US have a lot of conventional forces and absolutely protected, they don’t need nuces. Yes?

So you think it's better for Russia to build up to the maximum under the Treaty rather than the US reducing to Russia's current level?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

Russia after you...

Lol. I personally would prefer to see the numbers greatly reduced for everybody. And the sooner we get rid of them all, the better. They are big consumers of resources, and their very existence practically guarantees that sooner or later one will fall into the wrong hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

Yes, I really think. Nobody hasn’t tried to make sure in converse yet. Do you really think that the US remained unpunished and not damaged if they attack Russia? Are you sure in your safety?

Of course not.

I'm saying that If the US was this Evil Empire going after Russia, we would have already done it by now. Why would we wait until Russia has a bunch of new ICBM's pointed at us?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFirst

That’s not a demonization. Only a sober view on US policy. The bombardment of Yugoslavia killed the last romantics of US-Russian friendship. Perestoika is ended.

Well, you have to sell the public on the threat in order to justify building the ICBM's...

Alex_Ivanov · 01-26-2007, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan187

Please do post some figures if you wouldn't mind.

Well, according to official statistics, following changes took place since 1999:
1. GDP is now estimated at 150% of GDP of 1999.
2. GDP structure. Share of services grew up to 57% of GDP (49% in 2000).
3. Industry grew 42% in average.
4. Industry structure: 50% mining industry in 2000, 44% mining industry in 2005, the rest is processing industry.
5. Growth in processing industry: electic, electronic and optical equipment 204%, machinery 56%, food industry 50%, metal 38%, paper industry 36%, chemical 24%, oil processing 21%, etc.
6. Export structure: 93% raw materials in 2000, 85% raw materials in 2006 (if we count volumes, not money, not to let high oil price to hide real picture).

Of course, such growth is impressive only after great depression of 1990s, we still produce less than we produced in 1990, except electric equipment and paper.

I find overall trend optimistic. Please note also, that due to high oil prices Russia gets now much more money than it actually needs. So, the moment when Russia stops selling oil abroad is still far away (I said during my lifetime, maybe my children will see it), but moment when oil price 10$ won't ruin
our economy is near.

rickusn · 01-26-2007, 02:21 AM

LOL
All I can say Im glad I posted the article.

Every Russian poster and there apologists have made my point perfrectly clear:

The Russians apparently cannot survive without having the US as an enemy.

Its patently ridiculous.

LOL

But even more stupid has been the US, Norway, Japan among other nations financing the scrapping of old Russian SSN/SSBNs while the Russians spend enormous amounts of money buildiing new ones with even more potent weapons.

It was an insane policy from the beginning and still is.

But its basically environmental "blackmail".

The consequences of this ill devised course of action will be felt soon when Russia again embarks on its stated goal of "world domination" by any means neccesary.

Of course the Russians have picked the wrong enemy.

China is it but by the time the "paranoid" Russians realize that it will be too late and they will either be dead or speaking Chinese.

LOL What a world.

MrFirst · 01-26-2007, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan187

Are we speaking the same language? They didn't just make them learn Russian, they setup a state-sponsored system of advancement based on racial discrimination and cultural suppression. They did this not only to Georgians, but to all non-Russian ethnic minorities. That includes all of my family as well.

Oh wow they've had independence for 15 years, so I guess you can remove hundreds of years of an institutionalized legacy in 15 years with ease!

In America its called human rights. In Russia its called... not-available.

I think you are wrong. Racial discrimination was in South Africa or in USA till sixties. “For coloreds only”, “for whites only” – these things had happened in these countries but never in USSR.
For example : mr. Aliev – the first president of Azerbaijan – was the head of Soviet Azerbaijan and vice-chief of KGB; mr. Shevardnadze – the second president of Georgia – was the Foreign Minister of USSR; all presidents of Central Asian republics hold their positions since Soviet times. Needless detail – they are not Russians. It doesn’t seem like racial discrimination.

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01-26-2007, 02:21 AM	#89 (permalink)
rickusn *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-09-03 Posts: 1,317	LOL All I can say Im glad I posted the article. Every Russian poster and there apologists have made my point perfrectly clear: The Russians apparently cannot survive without having the US as an enemy. Its patently ridiculous. LOL But even more stupid has been the US, Norway, Japan among other nations financing the scrapping of old Russian SSN/SSBNs while the Russians spend enormous amounts of money buildiing new ones with even more potent weapons. It was an insane policy from the beginning and still is. But its basically environmental "blackmail". The consequences of this ill devised course of action will be felt soon when Russia again embarks on its stated goal of "world domination" by any means neccesary. Of course the Russians have picked the wrong enemy. China is it but by the time the "paranoid" Russians realize that it will be too late and they will either be dead or speaking Chinese. LOL What a world.

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