Greece vs Turkey; possible conflict scenarios - Page 7

laertes · 10-11-2006, 14:44 PM

And wikipedia now is our most reliable source Low-tech ha? Basically Turks call the same war as "Turkish independence War" whereas to the Greeksand to other many people it is merely Greco Turk war. It wasnt to difficult to observe that the passage you made quoations from is written by Greeks not by Turks. The article says there were 450.000 Turksih troops in the face of 120.000 greeks thats a total nonsense. Actually it was just the contrary there were less Turkish troops.
Why dont you just search wiki for the same war but from the parts that were written apparently by Turks.

Check this for example this is an exaggerated Turkish version of the same event.

Quote:

Battle of Dumlupınar
Result Decisive Turkish victory
Combatants
Turkey Greece
Commanders
General Mustafa Kemal Atatürk General Hatzianestis
Strength
approx.60,000 approx.350,000
Casualties
10,000 approx. 80,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Independence_War

Low-tech · 10-11-2006, 15:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laertes

And wikipedia now is our most reliable source Low-tech ha? Basically Turks call the same war as "Turkish independence War" whereas to the Greeksand to other many people it is merely Greco Turk war. It wasnt to difficult to observe that the passage you made quoations from is written by Greeks not by Turks. The article says there were 450.000 Turksih troops in the face of 120.000 greeks thats a total nonsense. Actually it was just the contrary there were less Turkish troops.
Why dont you just search wiki for the same war but from the parts that were written apparently by Turks.

Check this for example this is an exaggerated Turkish version of the same event.

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...dependence_War

my response is to alphers hyperbolic tirades about defeating half of europe who acted in concert with greece with only shovels and spears and such.

this obviously isnt true,they had support of the soviets,italians,french and so on. wikipedia is just one source<with citations, mind you>, you can counter it with other sources and so on. i dont know the full ins and outs of the war so actual dialogue about it is more than welcome.

im sure both sides got a bias and cant be reliable to the fullest extent, but this is not to conflate it with the obvious flag waving, revisionist history alper and doku like to declare as indisputable fact.

i could really care less about the actual fiqures,battles,casualties and strategum involved not to mention whatever the hell you'd like to call what war. Turkey had support from other world powers, i cited my source.

edit:your source goes nowhere, i takes me to a hyperlink something or other page

laertes · 10-11-2006, 15:58 PM

Italians and French did not support Turkey, actually they were invaders of Anatolia themselves. As you know they were forming with British the allied side in the war, Greece included. There is not much a reason to openly support Turkey for them. I saw the "citation needed" warning in the part of the quotation that suggest this argument.

But it is suggested that Italy, in disaccordance with British because of the partition policy of gained lands indirecty supported Turkey, like leaving some arms when retreated.

Brtitish backed Greece and provided arms to them but it must be rather obvious that they would not jump into the battlefield for the sake of Greeks, especially in a postwar period. Soviets openly gave their support to Turkey but they were not much "whole hearted" neither, their own existence was also in danger at the time, this was the time of civil war in Russia between bolsheviks and white generals. Plus it can be argued that British weaponry was superior to that of Soviets.

This can also be classified as an exaggerated, romanticized argument but it doesnt come from turks, written when the war ended with Turkish victory

Quote:

Ernest Hemingway, American Journalist and Novelist
The West and the East came face to face at the second class coastal town of Mudanya on a crooked road covered with dust on the hot Marmara coast. Despite the English flag ship "Iron-Duke's" ash-colored deathly turrets that transported the Allied generals for negotiations with Ismet Pasha, the Westerners had come here to beg for peace, not to ask for peace or to dictate the conditions... These negotiations demonstrate the end of Europe's dominance over Asia, because as everyone knows, Mustafa Kemal got rid of all the Greeks.

http://itss.org/new/node/71

EDIT I fixed the previous source

Low-tech · 10-11-2006, 17:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laertes

Italians and French did not support Turkey, actually they were invaders of Anatolia themselves. As you know they were forming with British the allied side in the war, Greece included. There is not much a reason to openly support Turkey for them. I saw the "citation needed" warning in the part of the quotation that suggest this argument.

But it is suggested that Italy, in disaccordance with British because of the partition policy of gained lands indirecty supported Turkey, like leaving some arms when retreated.

Brtitish backed Greece and provided arms to them but it must be rather obvious that they would not jump into the battlefield for the sake of Greeks, especially in a postwar period. Soviets openly gave their support to Turkey but they were not much "whole hearted" neither, their own existence was also in danger at the time, this was the time of civil war in Russia between bolsheviks and white generals. Plus it can be argued that British weaponry was superior to that of Soviets.

This can also be classified as an exaggerated, romanticized argument but it doesnt come from turks, written when the war ended with Turkish victory

http://itss.org/new/node/71

EDIT I fixed the previous source

this is fine, im not here to say the turks did not beat heavier odds. im not gonna argue british support vs soviets. i just wanted to prove turkey had support, didnt go it alone.

your source:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The neutrality of this article is disputed.
Please see the discussion on the talk page.
To meet Wikipedia's quality standards, this article may require cleanup.
Please discuss this issue on the talk page, and/or replace this tag with a more specific message. Editing help is available.
This article has been tagged since September 2006.
This article or section does not cite its references or sources.
You can help Wikipedia by introducing appropriate citations

.

has no citations

but thats besides the point i was trying to make.

since there is no citation for this

Quote:

Originally Posted by my wikipedia source

"The Turks also received significant military assistance from Italy and France, who threw in their lot with the Kemalist against Greece which was seen as a British client [citation needed]"

thats fine, i just wanted to demonstrate you guys had some support. whether russia was was "whole hearted" or not isnt my arguement, they gave you guys weapons?,no? alrighty then, it contradicts what alphers claims, many claims in many threads to the same effect.

HELLAS · 10-11-2006, 19:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low-tech

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-T...281919-1922%29

The turkish homeland? Asia minor has been HELLENIC for centuries and then the turks come in and rape and kill and that makes it there homeland?
And if the turkish army had the the power to take over HELLAS then they would've done so already. But instead they retreat every time they are at the brink of conflict with the HELLENIC people. No matter what the fanatics might think, it doesnt change the fact the turkish government knows that the HELLENIC army will make the turks regret any offensive attempt they make on HELLAS. When a huge earth quake hit turkey while the two country's where at the brink of war, the HELLENIC army went to turkey and helped. and yet the turks still talk about war with HELLAS. are the turks really such low class human beings? they already own so much teritory that doesnt belong to them and they still want more. but like i said, one day they will take it too far and get a huge wake up call. On the same day when CONSTANTINOPLE will return to HELLAS.

Big P WAR of the HORSEMEN
P-X MLT

Kansas Bear · 10-12-2006, 13:45 PM

Quote:

60 Krupp artillery pieces, 30,000 shells, 700,000 grenades, 10,000 mines, 60,000 Romanian swords, 1.5 million captured Ottoman rifles from WWI, 1 million Russian rifles, 1 million Manlicher rifles...

This is the turk definition of "nothing"

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlpErTunga

Soviet support is nothing.

AlpErTunga · 10-12-2006, 15:54 PM