Thread: NATO vs. Warsaw Pact

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

The more i look at this, the more i'm thinking it won't be quite so easy for the Soviets as i'd initially though.

My bet is the Soviets would take Germany and the Netherlands, but it would be a very tough fight. The air-power would favor NATO from a crew quality and sortie rate viewpoint. The Soviets would dominate on the ground, but the Russians are historically bad when they initiate the fight. Still, the ground force balance was so heavily in their favor, and US Army morale was so low (Vietnam), that I think the Soviets end up occupying Germany.

The Leopard 1 and 1A1 were available in large numbers in 1973, the all weather A-7D Corsair II and F-111E were state of the art at the time, the F-4E was in service in the thousands, and almost all US TAC, USMC, and USN pilots of that era had extensive combat experience, the US had a massive attack helicopter fleet, and NATO would enjoy absolute control of the seas and shipping lanes.

The more i look at it, this is shaping up to be one hell of a serious fight...

True. However, the armor and artillery balance was just too heavily in the Soviets favor. The Soviets had a joke: Two Soviet Marshals are bedding down for the night in Antwerp. One says to the other, "I wonder who won the air war?"

In the long run, I don't think the Soviets could have held Germany, even if they initially took it.

"True. However, the armor and artillery balance was just too heavily in the Soviets favor."

Artillery i'll give you(BIG TIME), but i'm not so sure about the Armor. At the time this is proposed to occur(1973), the Leo 1A1 was easily the best tank in the world. It alone had shoot on the move capability in 1973. That's a pretty huge advantadge.

""I wonder who won the air war?""

I've heard that joke many times.

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

""I wonder who won the air war?""

I've heard that joke many times.

It is rather ironic. However, if the Soviets lost the air war, they'd have Hogs swarming all over them like a pack of dogs on a one-legged cat...and that would surely influence the ground war, right? Or am I being naive?

Not in 1973 they wouldn't.

They'd have A-7Ds swarming them...and you know how fond i am of those.

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

What makes you think the Soviets will have any forces free to bring from the West?

If anything, they'll probably have to move Eastern forces westward.

If they win in the West (which is where their main effort is), then they will be able to bring forces east. If they lose in the West, then the Chinese front is irrelevant anyways. According to the Soviet timetable, they have to be on the Rhine in 10 days (to the best of my recollection). If they are not, then they have lost. The war in Europe will be won or lost before much has actually happened in Siberia, so Soviet forces aren't going to be pulled from Siberia before the outcome is a foregone conclusion one way or the other.

Perhaps the WP forces are just barely on their timetables 8 or 9 days into the fight, but they've no reserves to move West because of the Chinese attack on their southern flank?

Chinese involvement could make all the difference.

Maybe.

I really havn't come to any conclusion as to who i think would win. I get the feeling that if the Sov's break through and take Germany, they're probably getting everything all the way to france, but who knows.

Need more debate.

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Not in 1973 they wouldn't.

They'd have A-7Ds swarming them...and you know how fond i am of those.

Right, my bad, forgot the scenario parameters

Ironically, I was also fond of the A-7 in my much younger years. (for different reasons obviously)
My brother was into the F-14 because it had a pointy nose and went Mach-snot.
I was a fan of the brutish Hog and Corsair II

Dalem and TH,

Give me 24 hours. I've just gotten home from the road and I need to reorg my life (#1 Daughter got into my office and decided to play tug of war with the dog).

Monger,

Big misconceptiopn. The Soviets were to reach the Rhine (and that was a very big if) within 10 days. Did not mean that they conquered W Germany within that timeframe. Also, the Netherlands was a whole different can of worms since that was another Area that we've set up (re-enforced by the British Army) different from the Fulda Gap.

To take the Netherlands, the Soviets would have to regroup and rebuild and that is at least 5 days on top of the combat that would still be going on in W Germany. Best case scenario, the Soviets needed a 30 day war. Most likely a 60 day war. In either case, more than enough for the Chinese to make a difference.

Re: the Chinese theatre.

The Chinese had no hope in hell of killing those 45 Soviet divisions. The best case scenario for them is to tie them down and down draw whatever re-enforcements that are available eastward. What Mao would be thinking was to tip the scales for the NATO forces, not decisively engage the Soviets.

Also, if the Chinese were to sacrafice 3 Military Regions and 9 corps in defence of a Soviet invasion, then they are more than willing to do the same on the offense. In fact, looking at this from their PoV, they don't have a choice. They have to join in. If the Soviets win, then it was only a matter of time before they turn against the Chinese regardless whether the Chinese sit this one out or not.

Colonel, no problem at at all. Take your time.

Question, wouldn't the Soviets just need to reach the Ruhr and threaten West Germany's heavy industry?

Originally Posted by TopHatter

Question, wouldn't the Soviets just need to reach the Ruhr and threaten West Germany's heavy industry?

REFORGER.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

REFORGER.

Sorry, should have been more specific. What I meant was "Was it/should it have been a goal of the Soviets to capture or threaten the Ruhr"? Would it have made sense or been a viable threat?

Speaking of REFORGER, when was the last time that was held? Mid-90s?

Edit: Never mind, it was 1993

How did the last REFORGER exercise go?

Originally Posted by TopHatter

Sorry, should have been more specific. What I meant was "Was it/should it have been a goal of the Soviets to capture or threaten the Ruhr"? Would it have made sense or been a viable threat?

The Soviets would aim for it because they need to deny manouver room for NATO, not because they want to threaten civilian interests.

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

The Soviets would aim for it because they need to deny manouver room for NATO, not because they want to threaten civilian interests.

*sigh* I wish I could avoid coming off as a completely ignorant civ, but....
How would aiming for the Ruhr deny NATO manouver room?
Something to do with the geography of West Germany I'm sure