Thread: More than 50000 American lost their lifes in Korean War.

Originally Posted by zraver

NO they cannot. The what-if is sometime after May 45- the nights are getting shorter, so the trucks will be lucky to do 350km a day.

31 may 1945 sunrise 07:54
31 may 1945 sunset 20:01

Originally Posted by gabriel

I'am sure that's 2.5 tonne but let's roll with your figures

Im sketchy on this. I should know, My Grandmother spent her wartime career driving one.
2.5 Tonne is the tare weight. I.E without Load. 5 Tonne is what it can carry. Don't tell anyone this, but's I've towed a tandem trailer with a farmall tractor on the back, and thats just as much. A truck should be able to do better. I'm Using the U6 Model...

I was talking about a division (8-9.000 men+60 transport trucks) not a army,
which in addition to divisional assets has another 350 truck regiment

The Soviets have to support an Army.

probably those loaded trucks cannot exceed 60 km/h anyway.

True, they probably are averaging 40 km/h anyway.

700 trucks
350 one end ,350 the other.

If your supporting a devision, Yeah.

Nice math, now... do it again. (with my figures)

Nah I had enough of crunching numbers I think I'd rather just stick to the calory count, figuring what the soviets have in order to reach that calory count, and figuring out the weight.

That figure I gave before included dehydrated potatoes, flour. oats etc. I'm betting what in practice that the soviets have, is your normal everyday spud, therefore Mr Waits calculation, which had the benefit of the allied food machine, are probably off by a factor of 1/3rd or more.

I was erring on the side of the soviets, in regards to the benefit of feasability, but Zraver is much more closer to the mark. 350 Km a day. Works out to 8 3/4Hours travel per truck at an average of 40kmph, not counting refueling. So over the proposed distance, one probably needs close to 1300 trucks for the distance, if we presume that its 350 trucks operating a 600 km distance.

There are a few factors affecting road transport. There is a wide gap of probability. In the first instance I was pretty kind to the transport effort. I can always pull out what the travel is more likely to be like in the given circumstances.

Cool looking truck but thats just about it. Grandmother drove one. The old man drove one too, they had a few still lying around in Vietnam times. Now he's driven a hell of a lot of trucks, but for all the hell you can put them through, you'd never get him in one ever again... Btw, Gran could change a tyre on one in under 5 minutes now thats impressive, for a woman that raised three boys.

Edit: btw i like your new sig :p

Originally Posted by Chunder

Im sketchy on this. I should know, My Grandmother spent her wartime career driving one.
2.5 Tonne is the tare weight. I.E without Load. 5 Tonne is what it can carry. Don't tell anyone this, but's I've towed a tandem trailer with a farmall tractor on the back, and thats just as much. A truck should be able to do better. I'm Using the U6 Model...

The soviet trucks carried only 2.5 tonne, probably the Studebaker is stronger.

Originally Posted by Chunder

If your supporting a devision, Yeah.

To eliminate the confusion let my explain
1 soviet division by the end of the war is understrength in combat personnel.
1 soviet corps is equivalent to a american division
1 soviet ARMY is equivalent to a american corps.
1 soviet front is equivalent to a american field army.

I'm not talking about quality here, only men.

So no : I'm supporting the equivalent of a American corps.

Originally Posted by Chunder

Nah I had enough of crunching numbers

A very brief glimpse of shore bombardment from the BB's.

YouTube - USS Missouri (and other IOWA Class Battleships) footage (sound repaired) HIST 2001 VHS

''
''700 trucks
350 one end ,350 the other.
If your supporting a devision, Yeah

I was erring on the side of the soviets, in regards to the benefit of feasability, but Zraver is much more closer to the mark. 350 Km a day. Works out to 8 3/4Hours travel per truck at an average of 40kmph, not counting refueling. So over the proposed distance, one probably needs close to 1300 trucks for the distance, if we presume that its 350 trucks operating a 600 km distance.''

A German division on Eastern front used an average of 200 tonnes/day.A Soviet division even less.That's the practice.So,an average Soviet division needs ~80 trucks/day.Of course,the Americans look like magnates compared to any German or Russian,but these guys managed to fight a war that way.The benefits of the American abundence is that you have German officers complaining that the Americans never lack artillery ammo.

So,while the Red Army is larger,its a short distance runner.

Originally Posted by gabriel

The soviet trucks carried only 2.5 tonne, probably the Studebaker is stronger.



To eliminate the confusion let my explain
1 soviet division by the end of the war is understrength in combat personnel.
1 soviet corps is equivalent to a american division
1 soviet ARMY is equivalent to a american corps.
1 soviet front is equivalent to a american field army.

I'm not talking about quality here, only men.

So no : I'm supporting the equivalent of a American corps.

You were faster.

Originally Posted by gabriel

Nice math, now... do it again. (with my figures)

OK you've enticed me. Standard soviet diet over reliance on spuds.

1700/Callorie count of the spuds,
comes out to 4208.8 tonnes of spuds to feed 2.3 million troops in Germany. Of course it won't be all spuds, so try 3500 - 4000 tonnes of food needed.

This is what it will take to feed them.

You will need 700 trucks to transport them. (3500 Tonnes) 800 if it's (4000 Tonnes).

Supplying food alone you need over the what if distance of 600 the following:

350 kmh a day - average speed 40 kmph. Say this includes dispersal to make it fair...
You Need 1400 - 1600 trucks depending on the tonnage needed.
Since they are only making 350 km a day (its not unreasonable with a winter appoaching) you need to double the number to make the distance (lets say the distance is 700, make it even stevens aye, just for the exercise.) You actually need between 2800 trucks to 3200 trucks on the roads over a 700 km transit distance. For food purposes alone.

269.5 Liters of fuel per truck.

If running 2800 trucks = 744,529 litres, 647.7 Tonnes of Fuel
If Running 3200 trucks = 862,400 litres, 750.3 Tonnes of Fuel.

if 2800, 130 trucks needed to supply them fuel
If 3200, 150 trucks needed to supply them fuel

Fuel trucks themselves need fuel if 130 trucks, need another 30 trucks to supply them fuel
If 150 trucks, need 35 trucks to supply them fuel.

You then need trucks to supply them with fuel. (8 trucks), then you need to supply them fuel)

To supply the food logistics alone, you need to run between 2960 to 3385 trucks at least...

Then we can figure out all the rest. No good at ammo calculation! Nor tank usage. But for a protracted offensive, I don't know how many trucks you'd need. 8000? more? who knows.

Still, theres domino effect incase of a breakdown on a dog leg, a refueling hitchup, (Station bombed, pump not working etc).

I think the Soviets will have exhausted themselves.

Edit, just read your post. I was using the Studebaker US6 figures for fuel consumption. but if it's 2.5 tonne, it's double that amount of trucks (oh mah gawed) hang on i'll find the shite i was using.

Edit: here it is http://www.autogallery.org.ru/gstuder.htm oops, was in lb's not kilos...

Ok, well then it;s pretty much double the amount of trucks, and the amount of fuel....

So now we need 5380 -6770 trucks minimum, over 700 km... wows...

Originally Posted by Chunder

Then we can figure out all the rest. No good at ammo calculation! Nor tank usage. But for a protracted offensive, I don't know how many trucks you'd need. 8000? more? who knows.

12.000 trucks for the whole Bagration thing but that's 5 fronts
In Berlin are only 3 so 7200 trucks is my estimate.

Trucks break down and they will need mechanics, spare parts, and tow trucks...

Originally Posted by gabriel

12.000 trucks for the whole Bagration thing but that's 5 fronts
In Berlin are only 3 so 7200 trucks is my estimate.

But i have completely disregarded the fact that from June-1944-may 1945
there is a significant amount of trucks being delivered to the URSS trough L&L.

Originally Posted by gabriel

But i have completely disregarded the fact that from June-1944-may 1945
there is a significant amount of trucks being delivered to the URSS trough L&L.

Yep, Soviets used our trucks so they could concentrate on building tanks. Imagine the flow of the trucks from the US stops along with the spare parts to keep them running.

Originally Posted by gunnut

Yep, Soviets used our trucks so they could concentrate on building tanks. Imagine the flow of the trucks from the US stops along with the spare parts to keep them running.

Last deliveries were in september 1945 , how long did the trucks kept running after that ?

Originally Posted by gabriel

Last deliveries were in september 1945 , how long did the trucks kept running after that ?

That depends on if they were pushed for war or had a chance to settle down in peace.

If they were pushed for war, then any break down will result in either salvaging the truck for useful parts or improvise parts from other machines to make them work. Either way the lives of the trucks will be shorter than normal.

If they had a chance to setting down with custom parts replicated by the Soviet machine shops, then they could live a long time.

Originally Posted by gunnut

That depends on if they were pushed for war or had a chance to settle down in peace.

If they were pushed for war, then any break down will result in either salvaging the truck for useful parts or improvise parts from other machines to make them work. Either way the lives of the trucks will be shorter than normal.

If they had a chance to setting down with custom parts replicated by the Soviet machine shops, then they could live a long time.

The number of trucks delivered vs the number of trucks that survived the war is a huge gap. In 1945 ledn lease trucks make up 41.9% of the Red Armies motor pool but nearly all of its front line vehicles. American trucks being 4x4/4x6 were given the hardest tasks (combat) with the resulting high breakdowns. A huge number were also converted to rocket launchers, mobile mortars etc. May 1945 is spring time and a lot of the roads will be mud. Since the Soviets can't pack 200 divisions on to Autobahn only improved roadways, a lot of trucks are going to face even heavier wear than normals trying to get through the mud.

Add in the poor overall level of Soviet mechanical skill and chances are that when a truck breaks down, there won't be a mechanic ready at hand to fix it, even if the parts are. Mechanical skill was one of the secret weapons of the US in WWII. Almost unit had multiple people who could tear apart and engine and put in back together, get parts from dissimilar types to work in a pinch and improvise improvements. The Brits and Germans had this as well to a degree, but the mostly peasant Soviet and Japanese populations could not.

Most of the rear area supply moving- ie getting the supplies from rail heads to depots where divisional/corps/army transport can get it too the unit is going to be on the less capable Soviet trucks. The farther back the break in the rail lines- the farther they have to travel.

Gabriel, with your information on the sunrise sunset, each truck has about 7 hours of travel time allowing 1 hour to load and 1 hour to unload/hide. 7x 40 280km day. This might be doable for divisional trucks go to a Army or front depot, by higher level formations having to go back farther to bring supplies up will have a problem. In particular if the Red Army is advancing in combat- double all supply requirements and more than double transport needs as the wounded have to be transported.

2.3 million men need about 10.35lbs of supplies a day just to survive- 2 pounds of food and 1 gallon of water. That is 23,850,000lbs pounds or 11,903 tons on 2381 perfectly loaded trucks per day just for food and water. That does not include the fodder for the horses, ammunition and explosives, spare parts and fuel an Army will need. Each horse needs 20+ pounds of hay a day, I don't know how many horses the Red Army had in 1945 but it was a lot. Even just 50,000 translates to an additional 1 million pounds (500 tons) of transported good per day or 100 more trucks.

This before break downs, combat loss, lost (as in don't know where they are), requisitioned by other units of the myriad of other things that can happen the Soviets need almost 10,000 trucks just to meet the assistance requirements of the troops, but that is trucks going from the front line to the point of supply, if you break that up to multiple points of supply, ie from rail to army from army to division each step doubles the number of trucks. So if you have 3 steps rail to army, army to division, division to combat unit you need 30,000 trucks a day just for sustenance.

Now we ahve basic loads, not every one is a combat troops, but combat troopers use more ammo. 90 rounds and 3 grenades per day per infantry man actually engaged in combat at a minimum. Roughly 6 pounds per trooper to start- close to 14 million pounds before combat and then somewhat less. Each tank needs on average 10kg per shell, less for the F-34 equipped T-34/76 more for the 122/152 equipped SU's. IIRC roughly 60 rounds for the T-34/85 so 600kg of ammo per tank... Do you see how bad the numbers are getting? Without months to prepare and stockpile the Red Army can't do it on trucks.