Thread: Could genocide happen again?

Originally Posted by Ucar

Can you please quote us the article of the Lausanne Treaty, where reciprocity between Turkey and Greece is mentioned in terms of religious instructions and maintenance.

It is an implied term, stipulated under the provision regarding the population exchange between Greece and Turkey (which excluded the Turks of Western Thrace). All jurists acknowledge this.

Originally Posted by Kansas Bear

From what I've read here:
THE TURKS OF WESTERN THRACE
90% of the events mentioned occur in the 1990s. Their report on Mosques was in 1990, 19 yrs AFTER the closing of the Halki Seminary. Unfortunately for you, Turkey's "reaction" to Greece's "actions" were nearly 2 DECADES EARLY!!




AND......



Just exactly where on the site listed above does it state that Greece does not allow the training of Imams or the use of Turkish mosques??



Greece



The Muslim Minority of Greek Thrace


AND.........

As of Dec 7, 2007 when the discussion for minority education was broached by Rodop MP Ahmet Haciosman and Iskece (Xanthi) MP Cetin Mandaci, neither mentioned the 2 Qur'anic schools being closed.

The Greek government started appointing muftis instead of holding elections after the death of Mufti of Komotini in 1985 (which is a failure to implement Law 2345/1920 according to Cultural Survival), although the Greek government maintained that as the practice of state-appointed muftis is widespread (including in Turkey), this practice should be adhered to in Greece, and as the muftis perform certain judicial functions in matters of family and inheritance law, the state ought to appoint them. Human Rights Watch alleges that this is against Lausanne Treaty which grants the Muslim minority the right to organize and conduct religious affairs free from government interference (although it is unclear whether issues such as inheritance law are religious matters). As such, there are two muftis for each post, one elected by the participating faithful, and one appointed by Presidential Decree. The elected Mufti of Xanthi is Mr Aga and the government recognized one is Mr Sinikoğlu; the elected Mufti of Komotini is Mr Şerif and the government recognized one is Mr Cemali. According to the Greek government, the elections by which Mr Aga and Mr Şerif were appointed were rigged and involved very little participation from the minority. As pretension of (religious) authority is a criminal offence against the lawful muftis under the Greek Penal Code, both elected muftis were prosecuted and on conviction, both were imprisoned and fined. When, however, the case was taken to the European Court of Human Rights, the Greek government was found to have violated the right to religious freedom of Mr Aga and Mr Şerif.

Furthermore, the Greek government has also been forcing the minority to change the Turkish names of all non-profit organizations, mosques and charities etc.

For a detailed analysis of the ordeal the Turkish minority faces in Western Thrace I draw your attention to Greek Thrace Minorities.

Greek Thrace Minorities

For those who claim that Turkey is biased towards the Islamic Religion....

The Turkish Jewish Community and its facilities in Turkey
The Turkish Jewish community's social welfare institutions are the Or-Ahayim Jewish Hospital of Istanbul, the Old Age Home in Istanbul, the Society for Aid to Students, the Society to Protect and Shelter Orphans; the Matan Baseter-Barınyurt, a home in Istanbul for people in need of medical care and/or without relatives and the Karataş Jewish Hospital and Old Age Home of Izmir.

The Ulus Jewish School in Istanbul See website ULUS MUSEVI OKULLARI, established in 1915 and moved to a new building in 1994, provides kindergarten, primary, and high school education. Its current total of 460 students at all levels represents 30 percent of Turkish Jewish youth in this age bracket. For Jewish youth in Izmir, only a Sunday school is available. There are also five cultural societies serving Turkish Jewish youth, four in Istanbul and one in Izmir.

Synagogues and cemeteries are operational in Istanbul, Izmir, Ankara, Kırklareli, Antakya, Adana, Bursa, and Çanakkale. The largest numbers of active synagogues are in Istanbul and Izmir, the other Jewish communities being very small. These synagogues also serve as places for religious instruction in the jewish faith.

There are also four Jewish cultural institutions in Istanbul. The Society to Protect Poor People draws its membership from the community's intelligentsia. The community's leadership is exclusively selected from the members of this society. The other three organizations are: the Quincentennial Foundation Museum of Turkish Jews; the Schneidertemple Culture and Art Center, operated by the Galata Ashkenazi Cultural Society;25 and the Ottoman-Turkish Sephardic Culture Research Center. The third is an informal organization that is conducting an oral history project in cooperation with Centropa, an American nonprofit organization based in Vienna, and is seeking to revive Ladino culture among Turkish Jews.

The Quincentennial Foundation deserves particular attention. Established in 1989 by Turkish Jewish community leaders and businessmen, its president is the aforementioned well-known industrialist Jak Kamhi. In 1992, the foundation celebrated the quincentennial anniversary of the Sephardic Jews' arrival to the Ottoman lands after their expulsion from Spain.

The community also has four periodicals. The Shalom weekly newspaper was established in 1947 and is published in Turkish. The El Amaneser is a monthly newsletter in Ladino. The Göztepe and Dostluk monthly journals are published in Turkish by the Göztepe and Dostluk cultural societies, respectively.

Religious facilities available for the Turkish Jewish Community

ANKARA

Synagogues:
Birlik Sokak, Samanpazari. Tel: 311-62-00.
The syn. is several buildings along the street on the left, behind a wall. Services: every morn. Sabbath morn. services begin at 7 or 7.30 a.m. depending on the time of year.

Israel Legation, Vali Dr. Resit Caddesi, Farabi Sok, No. 43 Cankaya.
Tel: 426-49.93.



BURSA

There are 180 Jews in the town.

Synagogue:
Genish Syn., Rurucesme Caddesi, in the old Jewish quarter.
M.: Rabbi Uriel Arezo. Tel: 368636.
Pres.: Ezra Ventura. Tel: 3161584.
Services, Fri. evg., Shabbat morn. & festivals.


ISTANBUL

Chief Rabbinate: Yemenici Sokak, 23, Tunel 80050 Beyoglu.
Tel: 293-8794/95

Community Centre: Buyuk Hendek, Sokak. No. 61, Galata. Tel: 293.7566.

Synagogues:
There are several old synagogues in the Balat and Haskoy areas which are worth a visit.

Ashkenazi Cong., 37 Yuksek Kaldirim. Tel: 244-2975
Italian Cong., 29 Okcu Musa Caddesi, Galata. Tel: 293-7784.
Neve Shalom, 61 Buyuk Hendek Caddesi, near the Galata Tower (Galata Kulesi). Tel: 293-7566.
Sisli Syn., 4 Efe St., Osman Bey. Tel: 240-6599.
The syn. at the summer resort of Buukadalsland is open from June to Sept. inclusive, as well as for the High Holydays.

Kosher:
The Chief Rabbinate can supply inf. about a kosher restaurant and kosher Hotel with kosher restaurant: Merit Antique, Ordu Cad. 226, Lalelil.
Tel: 513 9300. Fax: 512 6390.


Israel Consulate-General, Elmadag. Tel: 225-1045.

Weekly: 'Salom' (Turkish & Ladino). Tel: 247-3082.


IZMIR

This community, numbering 2,460, is the second largest in Turkey

Jewish Community Council: Azizler Sokak 920/44, Glzelyurt. Tel: 123708.

Synagogues:
Beth Israel, 265 Mitharpasa St., Karatas, Kanamursil District, near the Asansor (Lift)
Shaar Ashamayan, 1390 Sokak 4/2, Alsancak.

Hospital:
Bikur Holim, Esrefpasa Caddesi. 3--

Kosher:
Kosher Meat: Tel: 148395, Tues. & Thurs., or inquire at synagogue.

ALL THE ABOVE INSTITUTIONS HAVE BEEN GIVEN TURKISH GOVERNMENT GRANTS ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS. IN FACT, NEVE SALOM SINAGOGUE WAS GIVEN A GRANT IN 2006 TO COVER THE COST OF RENOVATING IT AFTER THE ISTANBUL BOMBINGS. THE NUMEROUS JEWISH SCHOOLS ARE ALSO GIVEN GRANTS BASED ON HOW MANY STUDENT ATTEND. Neve Salom Sinagogu Vakfý


GREEK ORTHODOX INSTITUTIONS IN TURKEY





Known among the public with nicknames such as "The Red Castle" and "The Red School", this gigantic building is without no doupt one of the most beautiful and dominant structures on the Golden Horn. Designed by the Ottoman Greek architect Dimadis in 1883, the building was constructed with an eclectic mix of ancient styles. The total cost of this building was 17'210 Ottoman gold liras, an enormous sum for that period. Despite its function as a school, the building is often referred to as "the 5th largest castle in Europe" because of its castle-like shape.

The Phanar Greek Orthodox College is the oldest surviving and most prestigious Greek Orthodox school in Istanbul. Established in 1454 by Matheos Kamaryotis, it soon became the school of the wealthy and prominent Greek families in the empire, and many Ottoman ministers and Wallachian princes were graduated from it. The large dome at the top of this building is used as an observatory for astronomy classes and has a large antique telescope. Today it houses the Fener Greek Patriarch. However, it also still serves as a Priests school.

The condition in which such building is today for a building which was built in 1883 shows how Turkey infact supports and maintains such institutions.

TO BE Continued....

N.B. I also suggest you check the validity of the above with the Ministry of Culture and Tourism of the Republic of Turkey, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Turkey and the Turkish Prime Ministers Office as some individuals tend to question everything.

Originally Posted by Khan_Han

[B][SIZE="5"]....
TO BE Continued....

N.B. I also suggest you check the validity fo the above with the Ministry of Culture and Tourism of the Republic of Turkey, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Turkey and the Turkish Prime Ministers Office as some individuals tend to question everything.

Thank you for all the information. I am waiting to see the rest. Btw, you have mentioned that all the Jewish institutions you have listed above have been given government grants. Is it possible to provide sources indicating some figures ?

Moreover, if I had not questioned everything, and fact checked them, I would be prone to make serious blunders such as arguing that there are programs in Turkish Universities' faculties of divinity where all world religions are taught with equality.

I question, it runs in the blood; and sometimes it helps dig out truths and facts.

Originally Posted by Ucar

Thank you for all the information. I am waiting to see the rest. Btw, you have mentioned that all the Jewish institutions you have listed above have been given government grants. Is it possible to provide sources indicating some figures ? I am in the process of gathering a timeline with the amount of the grants given and for what reason. I hope to have them posted up in due course. But, the grants are given through the respective vakifs the institutions belong to.
Moreover, if I had not questioned everything, and fact checked them, I would be prone to make serious blunders such as arguing that there are programs in Turkish Universities' faculties of divinity where all world religions are taught with equality. I still insist on such. The Faculties of Divinity offer a majority of electives on religions other than Islam. If one chooses all his or her electives from these subjects, he will have an equal number of non-islamic subjects studied with the core islamic subjects studied. After also contacting the Turkish Embassy's Educational Attache I have been informed that students can also undertake generalist degrees such as a Bachelor of Arts and study Christianity or Jewdaism within this degree. In fact, the student could also study some subjects at other Universities abroad on an Exchange student basis. Thus, the options are there. Its not like Turkey is suppressing the religious education of non-muslims. In addition, to this a majority of religions such as the Turkish Jews receive their tertiary religious instruction at the numerous synagogues.

I question, it runs in the blood; and sometimes it helps dig out truths and facts.

I have an immense amount of data which I am sifting through and will be posting more information when I get a chance. I am also waiting for replies from the Turkish Ministry of Culture regarding some figures.

Originally Posted by Khan_Han

The Greek government started appointing muftis instead of holding elections after the death of Mufti of Komotini in 1985 (which is a failure to implement Law 2345/1920 according to Cultural Survival), although the Greek government maintained that as the practice of state-appointed muftis is widespread (including in Turkey), this practice should be adhered to in Greece, and as the muftis perform certain judicial functions in matters of family and inheritance law, the state ought to appoint them. Human Rights Watch alleges that this is against Lausanne Treaty which grants the Muslim minority the right to organize and conduct religious affairs free from government interference (although it is unclear whether issues such as inheritance law are religious matters). As such, there are two muftis for each post, one elected by the participating faithful, and one appointed by Presidential Decree. The elected Mufti of Xanthi is Mr Aga and the government recognized one is Mr Sinikoğlu; the elected Mufti of Komotini is Mr Şerif and the government recognized one is Mr Cemali. According to the Greek government, the elections by which Mr Aga and Mr Şerif were appointed were rigged and involved very little participation from the minority. As pretension of (religious) authority is a criminal offence against the lawful muftis under the Greek Penal Code, both elected muftis were prosecuted and on conviction, both were imprisoned and fined. When, however, the case was taken to the European Court of Human Rights, the Greek government was found to have violated the right to religious freedom of Mr Aga and Mr Şerif.

Furthermore, the Greek government has also been forcing the minority to change the Turkish names of all non-profit organizations, mosques and charities etc.

For a detailed analysis of the ordeal the Turkish minority faces in Western Thrace I draw your attention to Greek Thrace Minorities.

Greek Thrace Minorities

And yet again, check the date in which this happens, 1985!! 14 YEARS AFTER THE CLOSING OF HALKI SEMINARY!!

Originally Posted by Khan_Han

Greece does not allow the training of Imams in Western Thrace. It also does not allow the use of Turkish mosques. For a review of the plight faced by the Turkish minority in Western Thrace, I just suggest you read the following report by the UN sponsored organisation Human Rights Watch..

So you have ZERO proof that Greece has shut down Qur'anic schools and mosques. Which also makes this statement a fallacy!

Hence, because Greece is not honouring its treaty obligations, Turkey is doing the same to Greece. Greece has no regard for Pacta sunt servanda. So why should Turkey?

Last time I checked 1971 came BEFORE 1985!!!


Do you have any more Strawman Fallacies??

Last time I checked 1971 came BEFORE 1985!!!

And 1985 came before 2008. Turkish Government should appointing Orthodox Archbishop. This is equality.

Originally Posted by Kansas Bear

And yet again, check the date in which this happens, 1985!! 14 YEARS AFTER THE CLOSING OF HALKI SEMINARY!!



So you have ZERO proof that Greece has shut down Qur'anic schools and mosques. Which also makes this statement a fallacy!


Last time I checked 1971 came BEFORE 1985!!!


Do you have any more Strawman Fallacies?? It seems as though you have alot of spare time on your hands and have access to the information very quickly. Whereas, I don't have much time and have thousands of pages to sift through. Give me some time and I shall furnish you with all the non-contentious evidence you will need. The public relations departments of the Turkish Ministries are very slow, so the data will be comming in here at a much slower rate. I can provide official data for all my points. But can you? So far all the so-called "evidence" you seem to provide comes from Newspaper articles run by the interest groups themselves!

The abovementioned information posted by me shows that Turkey does not discriminate between religions. The Jewish community is very happy with the Turkish Governments continuous support and they have their own schools etc. Thus, the only fallacy here is the previous contention that Turkey is biased towards Islamic Schools.

When we come to the Greek Orthodox Community, they too have their own Priest School on the Golden Horn (as shown by the pictures in my previous post). However, they seem to want more...they want Universal recognition. This will never happen. Then the Turkish Muslims would want the Office of the Caliphate to be reinstated.

Please visit the following website for a list of all the non-islamic schools available in Turkey:

Türk Eðitim Rehberi - Özel Azýnlýk Okullarý

All these non-Islamic schools have the status of "Özel Azınlık Okulları" (In English, "Special Schools for the Minority Populations") by the Turkish Ministry of Education. They are governed by Turkish law and are also given $1000 per student per year as aid.

Ucar, I hope you can translate this to english for our non-turkish friends. I don't believe some people will trust my interpretations on here:

Radikal-çevrimiçi / Türkiye / <I>Özel okul ucuzluyor</I>

Originally Posted by S-2

"1. 99.9% of Turkish people belong to the Islamic faith. There is nothing more natural than the Turkish state catering for the religious needs of these people."

This is a patent rejection of secular gov't. In a secular nation with so small a religious minority, scrupulous adherance to proper distribution of public education funds should be second-nature. To follow by suggesting that it's your gov'ts responsibility to facilitate the religious needs of it's citizens is as far from secular governance as one can rationally travel.

"Places of worship are part of the civic requirements which must be provided for by taxes."

See above.

"Doesn't governments in Christian countries also build churches, Christian schools?"

Do they in Australia? Not in America, I assure you. Perhaps we're not sufficiently Christian? What nation(s) do you have in mind, please? Greece, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, Turkey (for the restoration of several old Armenian Churches)

2. "If you don't provide the Religious education or Religious school or mosques, then someone else is very capable of. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran will jump at such opportunity!"

Would a shia doctrine be welcome in your 99.8% sunni nation? Does wahabbism so frighten you that licensing and testing is simply not sufficiently rigorous to assure competency? Wahabbism does frighten me.

"... Not to mention, there will be no successor institution to the Ottoman Caliphate such as the Presidency of Religious Affairs, and 600 years of Islamic scholarship will be wasted. Turkey will never allow such thing to happen.

Why can't these institutions be funded from the pockets of private muslim citizens? But arn't they? Who pays the taxes on which the Government runs? Isn't it the Turkish people

"Islamic schools will always be funded by the Turkish goverment and also remain under its watchful eye. If this does not happen then Islam will become a means for controlling the ill-informed and uneducated."

Is there something we should all fear from Islam that can only be controlled by scrupulous government oversight?

All religions need Government monitoring. Religion can unfortunately be easily used as a vehicle for achieving personal ambitions. There are many examples...

Originally Posted by Khan_Han

When we come to the Greek Orthodox Community, they too have their own Priest School on the Golden Horn (as shown by the pictures in my previous post). However, they seem to want more...they want Universal recognition. This will never happen. Then the Turkish Muslims would want the Office of the Caliphate to be reinstated.

Then your own people are disagreeing with you.

The second criticism concerns a contradiction in argument: it is argued that problems of the HS are an internal matter - the Patriarchate is a “Turkish institution” - yet it could be used as a bargaining tool, particularly in relations with Greece. Moreover, the principle of “reciprocity” does not exist in Lausanne. Such a situation recalls Article 45 of the Treaty, which suggests that minority rights in Turkey are also valid and binding for Moslems in Greece. Lausanne is a multilateral treaty, not a bilateral treaty between Greece and Turkey. In other words, parties thereto are liable to all signatories. Discrimination against or violation of the rights made to its citizens by Greece or Turkey cannot therefore be an excuse for the other to implement the same sanctions on its own citizens. Turkey has been pursuing a policy regarding its non-Moslem citizens within the logic of “reciprocity”, which it has called within the “Lausanne order” and defended criticisms on the same grounds. Such a mentality, which caused the Greek Community
to decrease in number, and the Community in Western Thrace to all but disappear, should be abandoned.

http://www.tesev.org.tr/eng/events/halki_sem.pdf


More....

The Board of Trustees appointed to the HS upon its closure in 1971 designated Professor Ömer İlhan Akipek, member of Ankara University’s Faculty of Law as their lawyer. He requested the cancellation of this administrative ruling and submitted a petition to the State Council for the action on the following summarized grounds on November 17th 1971:

1- This school is among those which fall within the scope of Article 40 of the
Lausanne Treaty.
2- There is no difference between the Republic of Turkey’s High School Diploma and those from Theology Schools apart from the phrase “they are regarded as educated in the level of schools rendering vocational education for at least one year after high school”.
3- Graduates of Theology Schools complete their military service just like any other high school graduate.
4- Those who want to continue their education at university take an entrance exam just like any other high school graduate.
5- Graduates of this division are only recognized as priests.
6- The seminary was not founded as per the Law concerning Private Institutions of Higher Education, numbered 625 and in effect since 1844. As a matter of fact, a private school of higher education could not be opened as per legislation operative during the time when the regulations of the seminary were approved.
7- That no procedures were implemented for the HS, even though it was affiliated with existing universities and academies as per law 1472, allowing students of all closed private institutions of higher education to continue their studies, was a clear indication that the legislator did not consider this school as a college.

So let's make this perfectly clear, YOU are saying that this, Professor Ömer İlhan Akipek(Law Professor), doesn't know as much as you about this issue??


More........

The Board of Trustees of the seminary ordered Professor Hicri Fişek, member of Ankara University’s Faculty of Law, to prepare a statement of his views. In his statement dated February 10th 1974, Prof. Fişek echoed the views expressed by Mr.Akipek as summarized below:

1- When the seminary was closed, it was functioning as a minority school as set forth in Article 25 of Law no. 625. This Article referred to Articles 40 and 41 of the Lausanne Treaty. However closing the HS and not closing similar regular middle schools for Turkish citizens contradicts the principle of equality as noted in the Lausanne Treaty.
2- Now that minorities are free to practice their own religious services as per the Lausanne Treaty, the education of clergymen becomes a necessity. As Article 40 stipulates, “minorities can found and establish any and all schools and education and training institutions”. Opening schools to educate clergymen would therefore undermine the principle of secularism less than the opening of theology schools by the secular state.
3- Like other high schools, diplomas are signed by directors and directors of National Education. But private schools of higher education diplomas granted during the same period were signed by the school director and Ministry of National Education.
4- It was openly stated in the seminary’s regulations, approved by the Ministry of National Education, that such a diploma would not confer rights provided by a university or college diploma. In spite of such views, the submission of a file for action was stopped on the above grounds.
However, provisions in the Lausanne Treaty are clear on this issue. Article no. 40 of the Treaty directly stipulates the following in relation to the matter:

“Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security [guarantee] in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. In particular, they shall have an equal right to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein”.

“Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security [guarantee] in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. In particular, they shall have an equal right to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein”.

Two TURKISH law professors apparently share a different view than you in regards to the Halki Seminary AND the Treaty of Lausanne.


Since you can't or WON'T answer my questions regarding the closure of the Qur'anic schools in Komotini and Echinos, this "discussion" is finished. Your facts have been proven to be nothing but empty words with no documentation.

As for the Halki Seminary, I'd suggest you spend time chatting with Professor Ömer İlhan Akipek and Professor Hicri Fişek, who know more about this issue than you'd care to admit.

Originally Posted by Khan_Han

Doesn't governments in Christian countries also build churches, Christian schools?

Originally Posted by S-2

Do they in Australia? Not in America, I assure you. Perhaps we're not sufficiently Christian? What nation(s) do you have in mind, please?

Originally Posted by Khan_Han

Greece, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, Turkey (for the restoration of several old Armenian Churches)

As far as I'm aware, neither New Zealand, Australia nor the UK build churches nor Christian schools. Perhaps you'd like to post a source?

Originally Posted by Parihaka

As far as I'm aware, neither New Zealand, Australia nor the UK build churches nor Christian schools. Perhaps you'd like to post a source?

Below are all examples of Government Aid to Churches....

Playing with Fire - Church welfare programs and government funding

http://web.ceo.melb.catholic.edu.au/...tion/facts.pdf

Heritage funding for the church of St Mary the virgin - Malcolm Turnbull MP

Virginia City Church Gets $500,000 Federal Grant - Topix

Suit against faith-based federal grant recipient dismissed (OneNewsNow.com)

Church's benevolent arm stripped of grant | NEWS.com.au

Church Members Going To Public Schools To Teach Abstinence - News Story - WFTV Orlando

News Article - Federal grant funds project at North Cleveland Church of God

Church counts cost of old age - www.smh.com.au

I could go on but I think I have made my point.....

N.B. How many mosques have received Government grants in these countries? Or how many synagogues have received Government funding in these countries? Very little if not none!

So I believe that Turkey is more catering than some thought.

Originally Posted by Kansas Bear

Then your own people are disagreeing with you.



http://www.tesev.org.tr/eng/events/halki_sem.pdf


More....



So let's make this perfectly clear, YOU are saying that this, Professor Ömer İlhan Akipek(Law Professor), doesn't know as much as you about this issue??


More........



Two TURKISH law professors apparently share a different view than you in regards to the Halki Seminary AND the Treaty of Lausanne.


Since you can't or WON'T answer my questions regarding the closure of the Qur'anic schools in Komotini and Echinos, this "discussion" is finished. Your facts have been proven to be nothing but empty words with no documentation.

As for the Halki Seminary, I'd suggest you spend time chatting with Professor Ömer İlhan Akipek and Professor Hicri Fişek, who know more about this issue than you'd care to admit.

The Current government in Turkey is in the process of taking steps in relation to the Halki Seminary (which was closed down by the Turkish Constitutional Court not the State Council as stated in your post). Hence, I believe that it is not worth discussing at the moment. I would like to wait and see the Turkish Governments position before jumping to conclusions.

I also understand that the Greek Orthodox community was given the option in 1973 of joining the Halki Seminary with a Turkish University's Faculty of Divinity, but this was rejected on the basis that they did not want the Turkish Government monitoring its affairs. Hence, I don't believe Turkey is the one to bare all the blame!

In addition to this the Halki Seminary affair can not be used as evidence for the notion that Turkey is biassed or leans more towards Islam. The Turkish Jewish Community and other minorities are not complaining.... [Emphasis Added]

By the way, please visit the following website in order to see what prestine condition the Halki Seminary building is in: The Holy Theological School at Chalki

I still insist on such. The Faculties of Divinity offer a majority of electives on religions other than Islam. If one chooses all his or her electives from these subjects, he will have an equal number of non-islamic subjects studied with the core islamic subjects studied. After also contacting the Turkish Embassy's Educational Attache I have been informed that students can also undertake generalist degrees such as a Bachelor of Arts and study Christianity or Jewdaism within this degree. In fact, the student could also study some subjects at other Universities abroad on an Exchange student basis. Thus, the options are there. Its not like Turkey is suppressing the religious education of non-muslims. In addition, to this a majority of religions such as the Turkish Jews receive their tertiary religious instruction at the numerous synagogues.

First, thank you for the information on minority schools. I know much more on this issue now, thanks to you efforts. Also some of my misconceptions have been corrected; such as thinking that government funding was not offered to minority schools.

Secondly, please check Turkish Universities' Faculty of Divinity programs. I already have for a second time, following your comments. Here's a summary of specifically non-Islam focused electives and must courses being offered over 4 years of education by Divinity Faculties' of some universities in Turkey. I did not count multilateral courses such as "History of Religion" or "Theological Discussions" as non-Islam focused, since in their descriptions, these courses are comparative courses focused on contrasting world religions with Islam :

Hitit University : 7
Suleyman Demirel University : 2
Istanbul University : 0
Erciyes University : 0
Selcuk University : 0
Uludag University : 4
Ankara University : 20
.
.
.
the list goes on but I am short on time.

Please bear in mind that although the list above includes electives and must courses. All students are required to succeed at a min.25+ courses specifically on Islam before they graduate.

If one chooses all his or her electives from these subjects, he will have an equal number of non-islamic subjects studied with the core islamic subjects studied.

This is not true, even in Ankara University which offers the greates number of non-Islamic courses.

I sustain my argument that it is not possible for a Turkish Citizen of any other religion than Islam to attend a university education in a non-Islamic focused faculty of divinity in Turkey. All students are required to succeed at Islamic focused courses that number between 25-30+ depending on university. There is not a single faculty of divinity where education is offered on par with Islamic studies.

Perhaps Turkey is not suppressing the religious education of its non-Muslim citizens. However, clearly not much is being done to support it in the university education platforms. The data I supplied above shows an Islamic bias in university divinity education facilities in Turkey.

Please reply in bold and big big letters referring to me in third person.