S-2

"AKP Government Floods the Islamist Imam-Hatip High Schools With Funds; Other High Schools Can’t Heat Classrooms For Lack Of Funds

Cumhuriyet reported that the Ministry of National Education pays half of the total budget for Turkey’s 2,839 high schools to 455 Imam Hatip Islamist schools. While these Islamist schools cannot find where to spend a surplus of 44% of the allocated funds, other high schools are unable to buy fuel to heat their classrooms where teaching is done in freezing cold conditions.

Source: Cumhuriyet, Turkey, December 28, 2007

Posted at: 2007-12-28"

MEMRI Turkish Media Blog

Ucar says-

"The Turkish State is biased in favor of Islam, and the current educational system is shaped accordingly. This however, contradicts with the constitutional secular characteristics of the country."

You may have a point. I've a history degree from the Univ. of Wisconsin. I've reviewed our departmental requirements for an undergraduate degree in religious studies. History core breadth requirements comprise 50% of the minimum required course-load. These constitute course requirements across the spectrum of general world history. Beyond fulfillment of breadth requirements, the student is free to design his course-work for upper-level emphasis/study.

Schools of Divinity differ in that they seem the exclusive purview of a PRIVATE college education- Yale, Wake Forest, Notre Dame, as a few of our best examples. Many of our best-known private college institutions possess a firm religious heritage and continuing institutional underpinning. I have not reviewed their available courses nor breadth/depth requirements at any of these universities to attain an undergraduate degree so I can't (as yet) comment on course balance. Still, though privately directed, I'd expect great institutionalized commonality in the design of the degree requirements.

__________________
"This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

Kansas Bear

I believe some here have mistaken a Religious degree with Seminary training. My father received a degree in Religion, but had to go to Seminary training to become a Methodist minister. This is the problem faced by Orthodox Christians within Turkey.


According to Dr. Macar & Mr. Gökaçtı, there are NO facilities in Turkey for the training of Orthodox Christian clergymen.

Khan_Han

Below is a non-exhaustive list of missionary high schools located in Turkey. All these schools have Christianity and other non-islamic religions as an Elective subject.

I went to high school in Australia. At the school I went to, I did not have the luxury of studying my religion. It was only through my personal endevours at the age of 17 that I learned how to pray. Up till then I was teased by my cousins and friends at funerals etc because I didn't know how to pray.

Yet, there are several high schools in Turkey which offer religious instruction as an elective to the non-muslim minorities.

American Schools
Robert College of Istanbul (1863)
Talas American College in Talas, Kayseri (1871)
Central Turkey College in Gaziantep (1874)
Üsküdar American Academy in Istanbul (1876) (former American Academy for Girls)
Euphrates College in Harput (1878)
American Collegiate Institute, Izmir (1878)
Anatolia College in Merzifon, Amasya (1886)
St. Paul College in Tarsus, Mersin (1888)
International College in Izmir (1891)

German Schools
Deutsche Schule Istanbul in Istanbul (1868)

Austrian Schools
St. George's Austrian High School in Istanbul (1882)

French Schools
Lycée Saint Benoît d'Istanbul (1783)
Lycée Français Sainte Pulchérie, Istanbul (1846)
Lycée Français Notre Dame de Sion, Istanbul (1856)
Lycée Français Saint Joseph d'Istanbul, (1870)
Lycée Saint-Joseph d'Izmir (1880)
Lycée Français Saint-Michel, Istanbul (1886)
Lycée Français Saint-Louis, Istanbul

Italian Schools
Liceo Scientifico Italiano I.M.I., Istanbul, (1861)

Khan_Han

My above post excludes the special situation regarding the Orthodox Christian community...Turkey will not allow the opening of such Greek Orthodox schools unless the Islamic schools belonging to the Turkish Minorities in Greece (Western Thrace) are opened.

Under the Treaty of Lausanne there is a Reciprocality agreement, that Turkey will not interfere in the religious instruction of Greek Orthodox minorities and that Greece will also not interfere in the religious instruction of the Muslim Turkish Minority in Western Thrace, Greece.

Because, the Greeks have not honoured such agreement (as evidenced by many Human Rights reports such as that posted above by Human Rights Watch) Turkey will not honour such agreement. It is very simple. Open and restore the desegrated mosques in Western Thrace and Turkey will open the Greek Orthodox schools in Istanbul. In fact, Turkey has already shown the good will and requisite intention by maintaining the school, through restorations etc.

Khan_Han

The validity of your sources are very questionable. Cumhuriyet Newspaper (In English, "The Republican"), is know to be very anti-AKP and has distorted data in the past in a bid to shame the current Turkish Government. It is the same newspaper which was claiming that Prime Minister Erdogan and President Gul were terrorist sympathizers. There ideology is to throw mud and hope that it sticks.

S-2

MEMRI is a perfectly capable source. You cast aspersions on Cumhuriyet yet provide nothing substantive whatsoever in contrast. Your disparagement effectively constitutes an ad hominem attack. However, the source isn't in dispute, only the information.

Could Cumhuriyet be correct? Surely opposition to the AKP, by itself, isn't grounds for dismissing the accuracy of this report.

Khan_Han

Memri is not a capable source either. All it does is quote other Turkish newspapers such as Cumhurriyet.

Any historian will tell you that secondary sources such as Newspapers and Online blogs should not be a reliable way of extracting information. Memri is simply an online blog (which you and I could also do) which focuses on anti-islamic news. Check their blog and you shall see that they have nothing but negative news about Islam and Islamic countries/institutions etc.

By the way in order to constitute an ad hominem attack, my assertions must be wrong. However, all of Turkey knows that Cumhurriyet is anti-AKP and will go to any length, including but not limited to the distortion of data in order to cast doubt on the government. In fact, it was only recently that the offices of Cumhurriyet newspaper was raided by the Turkish Gendarmerie for illegal activities, inter alia.

Now regarding Ucars argument that the Turkish Government is biased towards Islam I would like to state the following:

1. 99.9% of Turkish people belong to the Islamic faith. There is nothing more natural than the Turkish state catering for the religious needs of these people. Places of worship are part of the civic requirements which must be provided for by taxes. Doesn't governments in Christian countries also build churches, Christian schools?
2. If you don't provide the Religious education or Religious school or mosques, then someone else is very capable of. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran will jump at such opportunity! But at what cost does this come....Well let me tell you...The aforementioned countries will bring with them their interpretations of Islam such Wahhabism, which will in turn threaten the secular establishment in Turkey. Not to mention, there will be no successor institution to the Ottoman Caliphate such as the Presidency of Religious Affairs, and 600 years of Islamic scholarship will be wasted. Turkey will never allow such thing to happen. Islamic schools will always be funded by the Turkish goverment and also remain under its watchful eye. If this does not happen then Islam will become a means for controlling the ill-informed and uneducated.

S-2

MEMRI- Middle East Media Research Institute

I know MEMRI well. Their reputation is excellent. You've yet to dispute the data within Cumhuriyet in any manner other than circular logic and dissemblance.

Khan Han, is it true that Erdogan is a Imam Hatip graduate? If so, more than ever you should provide the tangible proof of unbiased funding of Turkish public schools.

S-2

"1. 99.9% of Turkish people belong to the Islamic faith. There is nothing more natural than the Turkish state catering for the religious needs of these people."

This is a patent rejection of secular gov't. In a secular nation with so small a religious minority, scrupulous adherance to proper distribution of public education funds should be second-nature. To follow by suggesting that it's your gov'ts responsibility to facilitate the religious needs of it's citizens is as far from secular governance as one can rationally travel.

"Places of worship are part of the civic requirements which must be provided for by taxes."

See above.

"Doesn't governments in Christian countries also build churches, Christian schools?"

Do they in Australia? Not in America, I assure you. Perhaps we're not sufficiently Christian? What nation(s) do you have in mind, please?

2. "If you don't provide the Religious education or Religious school or mosques, then someone else is very capable of. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran will jump at such opportunity!"

Would a shia doctrine be welcome in your 99.8% sunni nation? Does wahabbism so frighten you that licensing and testing is simply not sufficiently rigorous to assure competency?

"... Not to mention, there will be no successor institution to the Ottoman Caliphate such as the Presidency of Religious Affairs, and 600 years of Islamic scholarship will be wasted. Turkey will never allow such thing to happen.

Why can't these institutions be funded from the pockets of private muslim citizens?

"Islamic schools will always be funded by the Turkish goverment and also remain under its watchful eye. If this does not happen then Islam will become a means for controlling the ill-informed and uneducated."

Is there something we should all fear from Islam that can only be controlled by scrupulous government oversight?

Kansas Bear

From what I've read here:
THE TURKS OF WESTERN THRACE
90% of the events mentioned occur in the 1990s. Their report on Mosques was in 1990, 19 yrs AFTER the closing of the Halki Seminary. Unfortunately for you, Turkey's "reaction" to Greece's "actions" were nearly 2 DECADES EARLY!!


AND......

Just exactly where on the site listed above does it state that Greece does not allow the training of Imams or the use of Turkish mosques??


Greece


The Muslim Minority of Greek Thrace


AND.........

As of Dec 7, 2007 when the discussion for minority education was broached by Rodop MP Ahmet Haciosman and Iskece (Xanthi) MP Cetin Mandaci, neither mentioned the 2 Qur'anic schools being closed.

S-2

Nicely constructed.

Ucar

All of the schools you are referring to are high schools directly supervized to the Ministry of Education. Soem of them do not exist anymore.

They do not have any courses on religion other than Islam; however they do have compulsary "Culture of Religion and Knowledge of Morality" courses for Muslim students. They were founded and operated by missionaries, but now they are high schools. How do I know that ? My sister, and several close friends attended several of them.

Your argument that all of these schools have Christianity and non-Islamic religions as Elective course subjects is false.

Check their websites, and elective courses. I already have.

Ucar

Can you please quote us the article of the Lausanne Treaty, where reciprocity between Turkey and Greece is mentioned in terms of religious instructions and maintenance.

Ucar

Turkey differs from almost all other countries in the world, in the sense that it is Secular by a constitutional regulation. The state's secular characteristics has been codified into law. Therefore, the State is obliged to care for the religious needs of its subjects from a neutral standpoint, that is to say, allow and support its citizens requirements at a level equal to their demographic. If the Turkish government is building and founding Imam Hatip schools, then, by its own laws, it should be building or maintaining at least 1 Christian high school, 1 Judaist high school...etc. This is not the case at the moment.

Moreover, if the state is secular, training Muslim clergymen in its educational infrastructure from high school onwards, should be matched by training Christian, Judaist or other clerygmen from high school onwards at a level equal to their demorgraphics. A secular state, can NOT be biased towards one of the religious factions linked to it.

Big K

S-2,

yes it is true...

mates, you all talking about "news" taken from various sources....now i'll tell you a conversation that i've whitnessed,

i hope that can provide a little exemple the looking of Mr. Erdoğan and his followers...

does anybody knows French Glass company ....i dont want to share its name...anyway...this French company has been bought by a Turkish company...this Turkish company wanted to hire me due to my knowledge on french language for using me on their French bureau of communcation.

the boss of this Turkish company was the head of the Association of Imam Hatip Graduates.

this man said once to the former Turkish President : "Your name is Ahmet(ex-president Mr. Ahmet Necdet Sezer) this is one of the name of Hz. Muhammed but you have any respect for the religion(Islam)".

the conversation that i've whitnessed is:

one day a friend of the boss came to visit in order to ask for a scholarship for his daughter. she was wearing a head-scarve (as it is forbidden to enter Universities with head-scarve. so the association of Imam Hatip graduates provide scholarship for these kind of students to go outside the country and continue their education at foreign countries(for exemple France or England)).

during the conversation the boss sad :

"- Mr. PM loves money a lot, so he will not be candidate for the presidential elections, but one of his fellows will be and will win. (this was 1 year before the presidential election!!)

so for now there is 2 main office that we can not enter: 1 - Presidential Office 2- chief of general staff office.

but the key is the Presidential Office (according to Turkish laws President is also the commander in chief of all Turkish Armed Forces, also holds the authority for the ratification of many critical appointments)

the President have almost all the key authorities"

he also mentioned about the interdiction of wearing head-scarf at highschools "i' ve talked with all the directors of local hig schools and warned them to not to listen the supervisors of Ministry of National Education(inspectors of NAtional Education are making sudden controls in order to control the quality of education etc..) and allow the girls (even force them) to wear head-scaves"

now; Islamists are one of the greatest danger for the country, and now they are supported by the west(ironically who seems to fear to dead from Islam).

it is a win-win deal: Islamists will have their goals and the west also will have theirs...

enemy of my enemy is my friend...right?

__________________
I'm not willing to remain silent even there will be no effect when i say.