Could genocide happen again? - Page 5

gunnut · 12-05-2007, 18:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwarven Pirate

In much the same way that 9/11 saved American lives by forcing us to declare war upon terror? Well... provided we win.

No, that's not a proper analogy.

We nuke Japan to end the war.

Terrorist brought WTC down to start a war.

See the difference?

phillip · 12-05-2007, 21:43 PM

Big K
or Serbian crimes in Bosnia?

I would guess that the "Serbian crimes" were really more like payback. The Balkan people just have long memories of Turkish occupation niceties. I don't think it's over in the Balkans...just in hibernation.

You are always saying bad bad Turks again...well, how come so many people feel that way? Countries build reputations through their past dealings with others. Why is Turkeys so notorious? Who stands up for Turkey?

Big K · 12-06-2007, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillip

Big K
or Serbian crimes in Bosnia?

I would guess that the "Serbian crimes" were really more like payback. The Balkan people just have long memories of Turkish occupation niceties. I don't think it's over in the Balkans...just in hibernation.

You are always saying bad bad Turks again...well, how come so many people feel that way? Countries build reputations through their past dealings with others. Why is Turkeys so notorious? Who stands up for Turkey?

you guess?...

hımmm...i wonder what are these "niceties" ???...

more like this? :
"In 1463 Sultan Mehmet the Second, granted a charter of rights, better known as the Ahdnama, to the Bosnian Fransciscan in which he regulated his relationship with the Catholic Church in Bosnia represented by the Bosnian custos Andjeo [Angel] Zvizdic. He also granted a similar charter to the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Genady II. Society and governmental control under Ottoman rule were even organized along religious group lines (the millet system). Thus, for the Orthodox and Catholic believers, religious authorities were also civil one, responsible to a certain extent for the members of their respective groups.

In its form, content and particularly in the Sultan's pledge in the conclusion it has the force of the international contract. Mehmet the Second, who after the fall of Constantinopole in 1453, considered himself the Eastern Roman Emperor, granted a similar charter to the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Genady II. It is interesting to point here that Pope Pius II, who denied the right of Mohammed the Second to call himself Emperor of Byzantinum (since he was not a Christian!), never formally contested the legallity of the Ahdnama. Andjeo Zvizdic "Vrhbosanski" remained the "Sultan's faithfull subject, obedient to his rule" as he promised in the Ahdnama charter, until his death in 1498. His two brothers, Domsha and Milutin, held hign administrative posts in the Bosnian Sanjak.

Quoted here is the segment of the Ahdnama Charter: "I, Sultan Mohammed-han, announce to all the people that the recipients of this imperial firman, the Bosnian Clergy, are held by me in my great esteem, and I therefore order that: No one should disturb or meddle with them or their churches. They are to live in peace in my Empire. Those who have fled should feel free and secure. They should return and settle again without fear in their monasteries... They must not be disturbed either by My High Majesty, or by my viziers, employees, subjects or any other inhabitants of my Empire. No one should attack, insult or endanger: either them, or their lives, or property, or their churches. And if they wish to bring some person from foreing lands into my state, they are allowed to do so. Having made this imperial order, I make the following sacred pledge: By the Creator of earth and sky, who feeds all his creatures, by the seven sacred books, by our great Prophet, and by the sword which I wear, I swear that no one shall act against what has been written here while this clergy remains subject to my service and faithful to my rule."

written on May 28 (1463)

The Armenian Patriarch was also established by the orders of Mehmet."

would you try to believe that creating a big "enemy" is very useful for every state in order to dominate their people...

world is gray not black&white....

Kansas Bear · 12-07-2007, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big K

you guess?...

hımmm...i wonder what are these "niceties" ???...

more like this? :
"In 1463 Sultan Mehmet the Second, granted a charter of rights, better known as the Ahdnama, to the Bosnian Fransciscan in which he regulated his relationship with the Catholic Church in Bosnia represented by the Bosnian custos Andjeo [Angel] Zvizdic. He also granted a similar charter to the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Genady II.

" In an interview published on November 19, 2006 in the daily newspaper Sabah, Bartholomew I addressed the issues of religious freedom and the upcoming papal trip to Turkey. He also referred to the closing of the Halki seminary by saying: "As Turkish citizens, we pay taxes. We serve in the military. We vote. As citizens we do everything. We want the same rights. But it does not happen. If Muslims want to study theology, there are 24 theology faculties. Where are we going to study?"

Quote:

In its form, content and particularly in the Sultan's pledge in the conclusion it has the force of the international contract. Mehmet the Second, who after the fall of Constantinopole in 1453, considered himself the Eastern Roman Emperor, granted a similar charter to the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Genady II. It is interesting to point here that Pope Pius II, who denied the right of Mohammed the Second to call himself Emperor of Byzantinum (since he was not a Christian!),

Only the Patriarch of Constantinople participated in the Eastern Roman Emperor's coronation. The Catholic Church was never a participant.

Quote:

never formally contested the legallity of the Ahdnama.

No, instead he issued a crusade at the Congress of Mantua.

neyzen · 12-07-2007, 05:38 AM

Quote:

" In an interview published on November 19, 2006 in the daily newspaper Sabah, Bartholomew I addressed the issues of religious freedom and the upcoming papal trip to Turkey. He also referred to the closing of the Halki seminary by saying: "As Turkish citizens, we pay taxes. We serve in the military. We vote. As citizens we do everything. We want the same rights. But it does not happen. If Muslims want to study theology, there are 24 theology faculties. Where are we going to study?"

In Turkey, citizens can not open private religious, millitary and police schools. Bartholomew can open theology faculty by fallowing the laws or he can give lessons in other 24 theology faculties. He knows it.

Ucar · 12-07-2007, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neyzen

In Turkey, citizens can not open private religious, millitary and police schools. Bartholomew can open theology faculty by fallowing the laws or he can give lessons in other 24 theology faculties. He knows it.

On the other hand, Imam Hatip schools which are government schools, ofer education for students who want to be Imams, or attain faculties of Divinity in University. However, there is no government establishment for training Clergy of any other religions than Islam. This by definition is contradictory with Secularism, since one branch of religion is de facto upheld when compared to others. Bartholomew I has a valid point in his argument that while Muslim Clergy is allowed to be trained in the country, devotees of other religions are not supported in a similar way.

Big K · 12-07-2007, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ucar

On the other hand, Imam Hatip schools which are government schools, ofer education for students who want to be Imams, or attain faculties of Divinity in University. However, there is no government establishment for training Clergy of any other religions than Islam. This by definition is contradictory with Secularism, since one branch of religion is de facto upheld when compared to others. Bartholomew I has a valid point in his argument that while Muslim Clergy is allowed to be trained in the country, devotees of other religions are not supported in a similar way.

i agree...

a religious school can not be taken like a threat...Turkey is stronger than that...

neyzen · 12-07-2007, 09:14 AM

Quote:

On the other hand, Imam Hatip schools which are government schools, ofer education for students who want to be Imams, or attain faculties of Divinity in University. However, there is no government establishment for training Clergy of any other religions than Islam. This by definition is contradictory with Secularism, since one branch of religion is de facto upheld when compared to others. Bartholomew I has a valid point in his argument that while Muslim Clergy is allowed to be trained in the country, devotees of other religions are not supported in a similar way.

goverment establishment for training clergy... patriarchate doesn't accept it.

Kansas Bear · 12-07-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big K

i agree...

a religious school can not be taken like a threat...Turkey is stronger than that...

Apparently not......

Quote:

Halki seminary has received international attention in recent years. U.S. President Bill Clinton visited Halki on his visit to Turkey in 1999 and urged Turkish President Süleyman Demirel to allow the reopening of the school. In October 1998, both houses of the United States Congress passed resolutions that supported the reopening of Halki. The European Union has also raised the issue as part of its negotiations over Turkish accession to the EU. However, the school remains closed, and there is strong opposition to reopening it from Turkey's nationalist parties, particularly the secular Republican People's Party.

Sounds like someone is scared...

Kansas Bear · 12-07-2007, 12:18 PM

(3) The Halki Seminary was created as the primary place of learning and education for the Orthodox priesthood of all denominations. Its closure constitutes a breach of Article 40 of the Lausanne Treaty and Article 24 of the Turkish Constitution which both guarantee religious freedom and education. Their provisions are also embodied in Article 9 of the European Convention of Human Rights and therefore the closure of the Theological School of Halki can only be viewed as an illegal abuse of human rights and a violation of democracy and international law.

Petiton to Re-open Halki

Feanor · 12-07-2007, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big K

around 2,5 hours??....KB you are getting old

hahahahaha again bad bad Turks

i wonder if you "residet historian of WAB" can find a single case that we Turks or Turkic nations or Muslims are victims?....

Creation of Israel qualify?

neyzen · 12-07-2007, 13:10 PM

Quote:

(3) The Halki Seminary was created as the primary place of learning and education for the Orthodox priesthood of all denominations. Its closure constitutes a breach of Article 40 of the Lausanne Treaty and Article 24 of the Turkish Constitution which both guarantee religious freedom and education. Their provisions are also embodied in Article 9 of the European Convention of Human Rights and therefore the closure of the Theological School of Halki can only be viewed as an illegal abuse of human rights and a violation of democracy and international law.

Quote:

ARTICLE 40.

Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. In particular, they shall have an equal right to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein.

Article 40 does not agree with you.

Give your opinion instead of only copy/past posts.

Big K · 12-07-2007, 13:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feanor

Creation of Israel qualify?

Big K · 12-07-2007, 13:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Bear

Apparently not......

Sounds like someone is scared...

yes but when people think about past experiences...they have right to be scared...

but we must get over it...

Kansas Bear · 12-07-2007, 15:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neyzen

Article 40 does not agree with you.

Give your opinion instead of only copy/past posts.

This is my opinion.

Can you not understand English??

Quote:

Its closure constitutes a breach of Article 40 of the Lausanne Treaty

Quote:

ARTICLE 40.
Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. In particular, they shall have an equal right to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein.

Also, Patriarch Bartholomew I, stated the same thing..

Quote:

Patriarch calls on Turkey to open seminary

ATHENS, MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 2001 - The Turkish government must show respect for international treaties and its Orthodox Christian minority's human rights and allow the country's only Orthodox seminary to reopen, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos told worshipers yesterday on a little island of Istanbul. The patriarch said that state permission for the Halki Seminary - founded in 1844 but closed down in 1971 by the Turkish government - to function would be "a victory of reason and justice over what is irrational and unjust."

Speaking at the opening of the Church of the Holy Trinity within the seminary grounds, Bartholomeos said Ankara could not maintain for much longer its refusal to reopen the seminary. As patriarchs must be Turkish citizens, the only seminary in the country is crucial to their education.

"What will the Turkish government reply to the rulers of civilized countries when they ask why Christian citizens, as opposed to Muslims, lack the possibility to have their religious functionaries educated?" he said. "What about minority rights, and the Lausanne Treaty that guarantees them?"

Patriarch Bartholomew calls on Turkey to open Halki Seminary

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12-05-2007, 21:43 PM	#62 (permalink)
phillip Banished Join Date: 11-19-07 Location: Palm Coast, Fl. Posts: 32 Country:	Big K or Serbian crimes in Bosnia? I would guess that the "Serbian crimes" were really more like payback. The Balkan people just have long memories of Turkish occupation niceties. I don't think it's over in the Balkans...just in hibernation. You are always saying bad bad Turks again...well, how come so many people feel that way? Countries build reputations through their past dealings with others. Why is Turkeys so notorious? Who stands up for Turkey?

12-07-2007, 12:18 PM	#70 (permalink)
Kansas Bear WAB Resident Historian *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 07-01-06 Location: Tornado Alley Posts: 1,572 Country:	(3) The Halki Seminary was created as the primary place of learning and education for the Orthodox priesthood of all denominations. Its closure constitutes a breach of Article 40 of the Lausanne Treaty and Article 24 of the Turkish Constitution which both guarantee religious freedom and education. Their provisions are also embodied in Article 9 of the European Convention of Human Rights and therefore the closure of the Theological School of Halki can only be viewed as an illegal abuse of human rights and a violation of democracy and international law. Petiton to Re-open Halki

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