Thread: Pakistan ,Two Nation Theory and a few lies

11. Where was the center of Rajput presence? Rajputs were originaly Saka's who came from central Asia and settled mostly in the punjab ....

I was just reading about the Rajputs , in a history BOOK written by a western author...John Keay and he quotes Al-Masudi , a tenth century writer..

The write(Al-Masudi) talks of a king called "Bauura , King of Kanauj". ... Historians have traced this king to the dynasty of Prathiharas.They are said to have originated from "Rajasthan"....And this prathiharas are the people to whom Rajputs trace back their lineage to.

This is just one of the theories.Rajputs also claim to be of the Sun/moon dynasty, another theories goes to say that they were "shatriyanised" at Mt.Abu with a vedic yagna , which is very hindu and not your western something abrakababra.

For all what i have typed , these are the "possible" lineages of the Rajputs.None ever talk about your West Origins or Shaka origins.

So visionindark , please think and then "talk".... Wait a couple of days , i am a lil busy with other works..i wrote up something detailing the coming of shakas , their fights with Satvahanasa and then their "indianisation"...i have it in notes , got to dig it up...lost it with my other book on South Indias history....

http://ghazali.net/book1/body_chapter_1.htm

Tarek,

While Jinnah was not an Islamist in the sense of the term now. Unfortunately, the Islamists now seems to be running a riot and what Jinnah may hae desired is not coming true. This situation was not so until General Zia came to power.

However, I wonder if it would be correct to judge the contemporary times with the times and the political environment of the time of the Partition.

Zia, to my mind was more of a poltical animal than a military General. He possibly wanted to Pakistan to be the crown jewel of Islamic world. The isue of Afghanistan was God sent for him. If he could assist the US in chucking the Russian Bear out of Afghanistan, it would be welcomed by the US with its positive fallouts as also would propel Pakistan to the pinnacle in the Islamic World.

The mujahideens and then the Taleban and the Islamic fundamentalist elements fired the nascent dreams of the hoary past where Islam ruled a large part the world; after all, where the US had not been able to rock the USSR, these Soldiers of God had.

I presume this reality was religious fodder to the Mullahs and they fanned it further amongst the Believers and Faithful. While the educated and more rational accepted it for what it is worth, the illiterate and men of the street (who lived a life of wants and needs and on only dreams of a better future) found it most appealing. They became the sword arm of fundamentalist Islam or so it appears.

Hence, the two Nation Theory has moved too far in time and has become so disparate in the structure both in India and Pakistan, that it is difficult to imagine the commonality that could have been there before Partition.

Jinnah's and Gandhi's vision nonetheless could still remain a beacon and a reminder of the times when the countries were finding its feet.

I might add, that the RSS elements have been rejected by the Indian population since their influence on the BJP has ensured the rejection of the BJP led Govt in the last General Election as also in the recently concluded State election in Maharastra (the second largest State in the national share of sending MPs to Parliament).

I am sure that in Pakistan, soon the MMA would also be on the decline oncer the economy of Pakistan gets even better than what it has become as of late.

Ray

Please look into the motions by MP Bhandara -- you may be, I hope you are, shocked that the Qaid e Azaam's speechs were/are actually being censored - children are being presented with the speechs devoid of the secular, and humanistic ideas that animated the Qaid life work and his achievement - I could not agree with you more that islamists are running riot, indeed, if you will review the papers, you will find a article regarding a seminar abot the kinds of liberties that have been taken with historicals facts and the deliberate attempt to demonize Hindus in the minds of the impressionable.

"the two Nation Theory has moved too far in time and has become so disparate in the structure both in India and Pakistan, that it is difficult to imagine the commonality that could have been there before Partition"

I don't have a problem with this - commonality has been keeping us uncivil towards each other, we might do better were we also to become aware of our differences and learn to move past them - because really that's what is required (nature and vacuum), humpty dumpty is broken and that's that, lets move on or else we will remain partners in indignity and a poverty of mind and spirit -- our inablity to actually learn to move on, to move past, to accept our differences, is in my opinion, really, unique

MMA on the decline? Lets not kid each other or ourselves, RSS and Bajrang Dal were never about "cleansing" the universe, nor had they ever dared to think that they may have a population, a nuclear state, to exercise themselves upon, and to justify that exercise by means of elaborate ideology in which the call is not from any man or state but by the Creator of the universes -- The RE-education required in project Pakistan is emmense - How does one project the reality of plurialism and therefore of tolerance, if religious knowledge should remain opposed to these ideas with and outside of the realm of religion?? Do you see what I'm getting at?? Should we be focusing on Re-educating, re-training, those who today create rabid, enemy seekers and enemy makers?? And that, ray, I challenege you show me to the contrary, is not now happening, nor is it on the near horizon.

It's project Islam, not just Project pakistan

An endangered species
Farrukh Saleem

Who is going to save the moderate Pakistanis?

Enlightened moderates are out, Madrassahs are in. In 1947, Pakistan had some 20 dozen madrassahs The half of Pakistan left now, according to interior ministry's rather conservative estimate, has 20,000 with 3 million students and they churn out 40,000 graduates every year.

Pakistan's primary schools are not far behind. The Economic Survey 2003-04 says 17.4 million Pakistani children are attending primary schools (according to UNICEF, an additional 13 million school-age Pakistanis will never see the inside of a classroom). Here is a sample of what the fortunate 17.4 million primary school Pakistani children are being taught: The official Curriculum Document, Primary Education, Class K-V specifically prescribes "simple stories to urge jihad ." Under 'Activity 4', the specific prescription for three- and eight-year-old Pakistanis is: "To make speeches on jihad and shahadat ."

The Ministry of Education, The National Curriculum, Social Studies for Classes I-V, Curriculum Wing formally endorses the following 'Learning Outcome': "Recognize the importance of jihad in every sphere of life." The officially certified direction for five- and ten-year-old Pakistanis is: "To make speeches on Jihad ." Under 'Evaluation', the officially certified direction to teachers and textbook writers is: "To judge their spirits while making speeches on jihad, Muslim History and Culture." The "Affective Objective" for Classes I-V is: "Concepts of Ideology of Pakistan, Muslim Ummah and Jihad."

Of the 17.4 million primary schoolers only 4 million enter the Middle School (the rest drop out). The lucky 4 million are given further tutoring in jihad. Pakistani textbook writers are obliged under explicit instructions from the Ministry of Education, the National Bureau of Curriculum and Textbooks, to "create a feeling among students that they are the members of a Muslim nation. Therefore, in accordance with the Islamic tradition, they have to be truthful, honest, patriotic and life-sacrificing mujahids ."

The National Bureau of Curriculum and Textbooks, Social Studies Curriculum for Classes VI-VIII under the National Curriculum Committee, has similar recommendations for jihad , Tableegh [proselytize], Shahdat , sacrifice and the rest.

Of the 4 million middle schoolers only 1.6 million enter the High School. The lucky 1.6 million then receive advance jihad tutoring. Urdu Curriculum (Compulsory, optional and Easy course), Classes IX and X, National Bureau of Curriculum and Textbooks, Ministry of Education sanctions the following 'Learning Outcome': "Must be aware of the blessings of jihad ."

The Curriculum Wing of the Ministry of Education, more often than not, equates jihad with guerilla warfare. Our primary, middle and high school curricula continue to equate Pakistan, Islam and Jihad . Our education ministry continues to 'inspire' our children to become guerrilla fighters. Punjab Textbook Board continues to make our children "aware of the blessings of jihad " to "make speeches on jihad " to "create a yearning for jihad " to "love and aspire for jihad ."

As a consequence of it all, our madrasas manage to add 40,000 real jihadis every year to our existing reservoir of jihadis. Then there are 1.6 million wanna-be jihadis who graduate from our 16,059 high schools every year.

Does our education ministry know that right after the Battle of Khyber our Holy Prophet (PBUH) had stated that jihad-e-asghar (smaller jihad) is over and that jihad-e-akbar (greater jihad) had begun? Doesn't that mean the end of armed jihad (jihad-e-asghar) and the beginning of jihad against poverty and illiteracy?

To be certain, we are going to need all the jihadis we can produce and then some more. At least four major jihads are coming up. Make no mistake: the first jihad is against all the 'enlightened moderate Pakistanis'; the second is against the 293 million inhabitants of the 'Great Satan'; the third, against the more than 6 million residents of Medinat Yisra'el ; and then there are a billion Hindus to be taken care of.

To be sure, Pakistan is producing 'enlightened moderate Pakistanis' no more. An 'enlightened moderate Pakistani' is now an endangered species. While the WWF is overly busy saving sperm whales, pandas, Iberian ibexes, Monk seals, Blue-fin tuna, one-horned rhinoceroses, seahorses and Lady's Slipper orchids there is no one to save enlightened moderate Pakistanis.

Friday Times

And then there is also this:


EDITORIAL: Can the King’s League be the Quaid’s League?

Mr Minoo Bhandara, a minority National Assembly member from the King’s League has done a laudable deed. Last Tuesday, he stood up and asked the house to adopt a resolution to include the Quaid-e-Azam’s famous speech of August 11, 1947, in the academic curricula of the country. At the time Mr Bhandara spoke on the issue, the opposition, including the six-party religious alliance, the Mutahidda Majlis-e-Amal, was absent from the house, having earlier boycotted the session. While Mr Bhandara’s passionate speech did not evoke much emotion in the house, mercifully the League members decided to go along with him and the resolution was carried. The resolution is not binding on the government but to the extent that a parliamentary reference has been made to the Quaid’s speech for once is in itself very refreshing. As Mr Bhandara noted, the state, over the past thirty years, has even sought to censor the Quaid’s speech.

But even as we hail this development, it brings back painful memories of the time the League, then under prime minister Liaquat Ali Khan, chose to pass an Objectives Resolution that opened up the constitution to the mischief later carried out by General Zia ul Haq. Even today, we have as our minister for religious affairs General Zia’s son who has chosen repeatedly to create confusion and cast doubts on the intentions of the government to carry out the necessary reforms.

The irony is that in making the August 11 speech and setting down the principle of confining religion to the personal sphere, the Quaid was in fact putting forth the ‘objectives’ of the new state of Pakistan. Even at the time of debating the Objectives Resolution, it was the minority members of the assembly who objected to the conception of the new state on the basis of religion. Reading their speeches today one can see how prescient they were. Again, it has taken a non-Muslim Pakistani to point to the absolute necessity of redirecting this state. The King’s League lays claim to being the true Quaid League. We would expect it to prove to this country that it can carry forward that enlightened legacy.

Alas. There is more disappointment in store for us. Mr Bhandara has formally complained of a breach of his privilege and that of the house because PTV blacked out news of the resolution in its major news bulletins of the day. The Khabarnama of October 19, he claims, did not telecast this enormous decision of the Assembly, nor deemed it fit to make any mention at all. He has therefore moved the secretary of the National Assembly to take up his privilege motion on October 22 or 23.

General Pervez Musharraf spares no moment to talk about an “enlightened, moderate” Pakistan. There can be no better document for him to get legitimacy from for this sensible and belated enterprise than the Quaid’s speech. We also have an enlightened prime minister in the saddle now. It would be only appropriate for this government to immediately act on the resolution and insert the speech in school syllabi. Our students, raised on heavy doses of distorted history, need to know the truth.

Yet, we are sceptical because we are not sure whether the actions of this government will ever be able to match its rhetoric. Certainly, if PTV’s atrocious outlook on the issue is a pointer, we are far from getting there. It would be interesting to know who took the decision to censor the news and why such a person is still entrusted to watch over the interests of enlightened moderation

Originally Posted by tarek

Ray

Should we be focusing on Re-educating, re-training, those who today create rabid, enemy seekers and enemy makers?? And that, ray, I challenege you show me to the contrary, is not now happening, nor is it on the near horizon.

It's project Islam, not just Project pakistan

One could focus on anything. However, what is your Plan that would achieve what you are saying?

What I'm saying is that it's unrealistic to imagine that the islamist rot can be prevented or halted (it can be pushed under the rug for a while, a sort of 400 lb gorilla no one want to acknowledge) because to ceate a effective change, what is required is the re-training of those who provide training (education) to the kids -- and this means the development of new ideology, a new expression of islam -- But this is not what Mr. Musharraf has signed up for at all.

You may recall a certain maulana Fazlur Rahman during the Ayoob Khan days (or if you don't recall himm, researching him would be rewarding) - Ayub khan realized that this project required a ideological grounding of modernity within Islam and the way forward was the openning up of Ijtihad - maulana was charged to develop a new cirriculae -- his effort earned him the hatred of the traditionalist ulema, he was hounded out of pakistan and lived out his last days teaching in Chicago.

There is now a considerable body of islmaic knowledge grounded in and at ease with modernity (actually it's post modern), however; it simply has no space to exist in pakistan -- Blood is the answer in pakistan, the mad mullahs will not suffer anything less and for my money they ought to be obliged -- but ofcourse this is not about to happen, the MMA was bribed to play by giving them 2 provinces - they have now gotten fatter and richer and now threaten to bring the house down unless Musharraf submits -- and he will, in time.

Now if blood is not politically palatable, like saying that a patient with a cancer has refused to have the cancer cut out, the prognosis for such a patient, is well, not optimistic.

Tarek
You are a pessimist or a realist ?
I sincerely hope you are the former , for the second option sends bad omens for India too.

Tarek,

I appreciate what you are saying, but is there any more 'progressive' leader tahn Musharraf?

I reckon there is no other option.

Ray

Not that I am aware of - but I suggest to you that your question is not the way forward -- The problem is ideological - but more fundamentally, it is a problem of METHOD -- It does not matter who the President is, what matters is that the State use it's resources to challenege the Asharite foundation and to replace it with Mutazalite or method of science.

You see liberal, progressive, etc., will have zero effect, because the trainers (educators) of society will continue to create the exact kinds of persons these liberal, progressive, etc., do not agree the nation nation needs.

The Pakistani state wishes to avoid becoming a Algeria, but a insurrgency leading to a general civil war is already in it's early stages - if the Islamist parties do not push the issues, they will suffer in the 2007 general elections - the army and the PML-Q will make the case that the Islamists got a chance to administer two provinces and they did not measure up tot the people's expectations -- but the Islamists in politics is is not the real danger, after all Turkiye has a Islamist govt, what matters is the substance of the ideology of the Islamists, it's foundation, it's METHOD - and here, Pakistan, SA and Egypt will continue to create monsters, unless ofcourse they are stopped from doing so, from iside or if those responsible inside refuse to do what the world needs, then from the outside.

CG

FOr Indians, Pakistan ought not to be the major concern, bigger populations are, from my experience of meeting with Indian Muslims and seeing their insistence of the public display of religiosity, what Indians should be focusing on -- Again, like in Pakistan, it is at the level of METHOD that this problem needs to be attacked - cuz if you apply repression, they may object and change the outward display, but the real place to initiate the change in the METHOD, to differentiate what is and is not Islam, what is ISlam and what is the foundation of Islamic Knowledge TODAY --

The Islamists continue to argue (it does not matter where they are from) that secularism, the ideology is "Ladeeniyat" that is to say about no God or Godlessness, about actually, the basis of secularism, it's METHOD, is about the replacement of the MEthod of religion, with the method of science.

At one time Islamic knowledge had the same basis, however; Imam Ghaalli's attack on reason and the ascendency of the Asharite ideology has had a impact we reel from to this day.

Coming back to a little history.
Megasthenes has answered the question of what constituted India , 2000 years before.

Originally Posted by FRAGM. LVI. - Plin. Hist. Nat. VI. 21. 8-23. 11.

Many writers, however, do not give the river Indus as the western boundary of India, but include within it four satrapies,--the Gedrosi, Arachotae, Arii, Paropamisadae, making the river Cophes its furthest limit; though others prefer to consider all these as belonging to the Arii.

So people who still believe in a seperate independent entity have one more point to counter.