Thread: Pakistan ,Two Nation Theory and a few lies

Hi guys I'm new out here.
Just a few comments for those who say that present day Pakistan was never really under Indian rule, and was always independent. What is this Indian rule that they are talking about. The subcontinent was never under any single rule as such, with the exception of a few eras. With numerous kingdoms and fiefdoms existing separately there was never any unity as such. It was the british raj which actually unity the subcontinent and which gave rise to nationalism that we know of today.

The TNT was a british policy which was used with good effect in most of the places that they ruled and then left. Why? even the Arab-Israeli is a "gift" of the british.

Why blame Jinnah for creation of a state that was instigated by the british to break the unity of the Indian National Congress.

Its a different thing that politically and as a nation Pakistan's progress is poor.

lemontree
It is not correct to state that the Indian nationalism was born after the British Raj or due to the British Raj . Afterall when you hear the word ,. "Bharath" , it must ring a bell.

You know a hundred years back , we did not know about ashoka or the glorious guptas.But today we know.Perhaps in another fifty years we might know about a few more dynasties equally strong and famous.Centuries of invasions have made it hard for witnesses of history to survive.

Request you to wake up to the fact that ,in the course of time Nations fall , nations rise but its the dharma , the values by which we live that never falls , never should.

It might not be "nationalism" as we know today , it might not be the same "india" as we know today , but the very essence of our nation has its roots deep in time.
Much maligned,plundered,invaded for the centuries , and efforts still being put in to disgrace the history,people,religions and customs , the Indian country fights on like no other.

Please note i said "religions" not religion.We do not want to be based upon a religion , the indian country since the ancient times has been secular and it would be wrong to identify it with any religion.Heck hinduism is afterall a collection of several sects like vaishanivism,saivism,and much more.We have had jews , xtians here before europeans had.We would not want to lower our esteem by claiming that we have a singular identity in the name of religion

chandraguta

In a way you are right. I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by chandragupta

Respected Fellow Forum Member Vision

I find that , for the following statements you have not provided any links/sources to back up your claim.Sorry for the multiple number of posts . I just found time to do this.This post is NOT meant as an offence against any member or any theory , but will only stand testimony to the fact that you fail miserably when it comes to posting something credible with accurate, enough sources/links.

You have 888 posts to your name as i type , and you are my senior here , does it do justice to this(any) board to arrogantly post/state something without basing it on facts or atleast without posting the sources/links for your facts.

Maybe , we members are very much in need of an education from you , with regard to your historical knowledge of the region !









The above point has been proven false , by other members.But we find no links from your side to prove that the kushan states EXCLUDED 99% of India.





Any idea what the bias in History books of ours are ? Any proof ? In the context of Kushans i.e. ?

Respected Member , once you are able to provide sources for above six ( 6 ) very important points , then we may discuss about crediblity and bias.

As i said before , i just found time to do this , so sorry with the multiple posts.Will try to avoid in future.

Chandragupta ....

honestly .... I am tired of this escapist attitude .... whenever I post something .... instead of doing the little effort of finding information .... you simply ask for links ...

I can't spoon-feed all the time ...

besides ..... all knowledge is not yet on the internet .... there still are libraries ....

much of what a person writes is based on what he has read in books which and still important sources of information (even though the fresh Computer Science Grads are inclined to believe that all knowledge in the universe has a hyperlink attached to it) ....

so please quit playing this "link" game with me and do some independent research ....

thats all I ask .... u'll come to the same conslusions that I have come too ....

Look ... I'm not in the mood of a point scoring game here ....

I made my point and I am not looking for a ong drawn out argument ....

all I want is for you to go forth and pick up some reputed history books and do your own independent research ...

and ....

before you tell me that I should do the same ....


let me tell you .... I have ...

CG

You are confusing yourself -

"Do we include Ghodra massacre too ? And Perhaps the Coimbatore bombings too , to which i am here as a live witness ?"

By all means, it lends more credence to the point that the picture is muddled and the making of claims that these events serve to negate.

Now with regard to the quote of iqbal, wherein, following Shah Valliollah Delhvi's work, Iqbal seeks to higlight that Islam is, for him and Indian Muslims who chooseto be persuaded by the positon, not the culture of 6th century Arabia, that it is important to rid the "culture" of islam in India of the manifestations of a "cultural imperialism" -- see Delhvi's position was to warn Indian muslims that like yourself, they confuse issues, that they imagine islam to be the culture of a particluar tribe, in a patiicular time, in a particular geography - in other words, to reintroduce ethics and reason in islam and to shun ritual and a religiosity of outward appearance.

Your positon like the intellectual, Ray introduced to us, is to suggest that the fact that Iqbal was a person of religious faith not of the majority makes him suspect - it's almost as if we were to argue that Gandhi's attempt to reintroduce ethics as meaning in the experience of BEING a hindu, makes him suspect -- see what you are ending up saying is that a "good" society is a society in which religion does not occupy any space in culture and in conscience (think about it) - The same thing that the intellectual ends up saying (Marxism, The Opiate of the Intellectual)

See, I don't think you understand the implication of your position - If Muslim and Indian are contradictions, then....

Look, just because Gandhi was influenced by his understanding of ethics, an understanding derived from his experience of BEING a Hindu, that this understanding of ethics informed his politics, does not make him suspect, so why does it make Iqbal suspect ? If the arguement is that in the case of Iqbal, he is not of the religious majority and that this makes him suspect, then we must evaluate in a deeper manner, the political and social context in which TNT gained relevance. UNLESS OFCOURSE, you wish to craft an argument that Gandhi is not suspect beacuse he was irreligious, non-religious, unethical, did not derive and did not position his etrhics in Hinduism, and did not position his politics in ethics. and that for this reason his politics had nothing to do with Hinduism and Iqbal on the other hand...

See, the crux of the issue is to understand why TNT - now in the Indian Pantheon of villans and (replete in annals of villany) Jinnah, Iqbal, Muslims, etc may figure prominently, but with out honest critical inquiry we don't have a chance to understand WHY TNT -- TNT, believe it or not, was offered as a SOLUTION, was it not??? To what problem?? The more you look into TNT and the political, social and economic context, the more you MAY conclude that TNT had many fathers and that responsibility for it was/is widely diffused. But ofcourse for trainiing school children it is not necessary to inquire very deeply, just point out the official bad guys and what a tragedy in the case of Iqbal, that he should be so villified in a country for which he penned "Sare..." perhaps all ingrates are not Pakistani.

Originally Posted by visioninthedark

Chandragupta ....

honestly .... I am tired of this escapist attitude .... whenever I post something .... instead of doing the little effort of finding information .... you simply ask for links ...

Sorry dude , i cannot find any book which will state that north india was not aryanised,and then change stance to "a little araynised"...pardon me , i am not upto your level of intellect.May be , i ought to be a racist like you to understand things that are totally read out of context like the word "Jihad" ,"kafir".Reading things out of context are totally alien for us , unlike our neighbours who read words "jihad","kafir" into killing people and make it into a Bloodsport.

besides ..... all knowledge is not yet on the internet .... there still are libraries ....

I say ,show me one library which will have a book that will go on to state North India was not aryanised...I am not in favour of AIT , but AIT states that North India was aryanised.Perhaps you read it somewhere in a madrassa ? . Sorry although our country has enough muslims , we Indians do not believe in a 70000 year glory but are content to state what the truth is , and we wish to stand by it.Satya Meva Jayate.

much of what a person writes is based on what he has read in books which and still important sources of information (even though the fresh Computer Science Grads are inclined to believe that all knowledge in the universe has a hyperlink attached to it) ....

one need not be a garduate to understand what "kanishka was indianised " means.I can imagine that ,if a person who is educated in european countries , having acquired a number of degrees by whatsoever means , does not understand what "kanishka was indianised" ,he sure must have been educated in a mullah headed madrassa.

so please quit playing this "link" game with me and do some independent research ....

Perhaps in the forum which you moderate , thats the norm .All over the web , if a person posts something new , he is expected to prove his point and he would be termed a fool to have avoided doing hyperlinking.You decide what you want to be.

Look ... I'm not in the mood of a point scoring game here ....

Yeah Yeah cant prove anything...so call it quits..wait till i point you how Shakas were Indianised , how they faught Satavahanas of Deccan , how Gautamiputra defeated them ,how they reconquered the areas lost and how they performed ashvamedha yagna and all other examples, to hit you where it hurts.
Shakas were Indianised too.

I made my point and I am not looking for a ong drawn out argument ....

Yeah Yeah , you just proved your intellect level...You could have always show how mathura was not the capital of kanishka , by pointing out a book and its author which state so.But then you quit.
Loser.

all I want is for you to go forth and pick up some reputed history books and do your own independent research ...

Do John Keay , K.A.Nilakanta Shastry, Mazmudar sound any reputed....?

John Keay , an authority on Indian history.Some of his books "The Honorouble Company" , "India : A History" are unparalled.

K.A.Nilakanta Shastry , his text books on South Indian History is being used for decades since it has been written all over India and places wherever South Indian history is being read.He is undisputed.

Mazmudar , ditto.His books on ancient india are famous world over.

I need not go to library to read these, i love my history i have them at home unlike people who shall make the phrase , "kanishka was the most indianised king" look something very alien to the english language despite being from a country which claims a 70000 years of history and better english speaking people than the eastern kafir neighbours , who they are waiting to pounce upon and massacre.

If you did not know i am talking here only after i read those books written by those authors.I post links here , because i really imagined that to be fair way to educate you rather than tell you the names of books which i read because i believe those books might be banned,unavailable in the country of 70000 years of history , because obviously they are written by Hindu and Xtian kafirs.

tarek
Let me reply to your post , after i think a little more about it.It needs a introspection into the society which i live in...however that is not to state that the Indians(hindu!) were not the prime responsblity for the partition.

Tarek,

Do forgive me. I haven't much idea about Hindu mythology or religious scriptures and so don't address those issues with me.

It is like barking up the wrong tree!

Just as an example:

Remember Aurangzeb? Imprisoning this father for the throne?

Dara Shikoh (1615-58), the eldest son. Therefore, the rightful person to ascent the throne. What happened to him?

Dara's forces were defeated by Aurangzeb, who occupied the imperial capital of Agra; and Aurangzeb took his own father prisoner.

Dara was condemned to death, and the sentence was carried out on the night of 30 August 1659, one year after Aurangzeb took over the Fort at Agra and assumed the throne. Aurangzeb delivered the head of his brother to their father.

Now, if that is above board and the way things should happen, then Christ, you are right!

But then, my good friend Aryan baccha would claim I don't know history.

Imagine me doing that to my brotehr who is younger to me. I rather abdicate my property rights than have hise head delivered even on a golden plate if you wish.

What a philosophy that govern these guys! Apparently, there appears to be some screw up in the genes!

Tarek,

There IS a contradiction between being a Moslem and an Indian in India.

Imagine a prominent Moslem politician, Syed Sabuudin, stroke a controversy as to where India Moslems were 'Moslem India' or 'Indian Molsem'. This is the level of intellect! The next stupidity was the campagin to say 'Allah Hafiz' and not 'Khuda Hafiz'. This the the level of Moslem intellect in India.

Using of Condoms by Moslem is by relgious diktat not Islamic! Yet, other Moslem Nations use it. Am I to understand India is the last bastion of Islam? If so, shame on you for having a different country under the Two nation theory. The Pak guys live in India!

Jinnah is decried in India as being anti Pakistan by the Mullahs. Why? He was a pork eating, wine drinking, Moslem who defiled Islam by marrying a Parsi! Imagine Jinnah anti Pakistan! How much more stupid should the Mullahs be? They are so deprived of education that they don't know that Jinnah is the Father of Pakistan even if he ate prok and drank himself silly!

Omar Khayyam drank, The Moghyl Emperors drank. No. They (the Mullahmen) would claim theya re near bred. Why? Because they ruled India. All love to claim descendancy of Power. Hypocrites.

However, I would add, it is mostly with the vast majority who are illiterate and madrassa educated and very marginally with the educated lot. I don't blame them, for they are madrassa educated. If one has five to six children without any worthwhile means of income, then education is not easy. The best form of education then is the madrassa. Sadly, it hammers religion as the core issue.

They also don't go to the free schools of the govt. I don't know why?

The Mullahs brainwash them that they have originated from the Arabs (as if they are pureline thoroughbred Arab horses!). That is bunkum, but it brings solace since most are convertees are from Hindusim which has the reprehensible caste system (than Heavens this is fading like a bad dream). Obviously, those who were the deprived in the caste heirarchy and rather low down the order, preferred to converted.

Thus, it is human and natural to disown the roots and delude imaginary grandeur.

Of course, other reasons were there for conversion. The jezia tax imposed on the non Moslem or the wonderful and quick fix form to convert - The Shining Sword of Justice and Truth of the Supernatural and all Compassionate!

Yet, those who may be of the Arab stock and intermarried with the Indian stock or those who converted because of to avoid the Jezia tax or not have their heads hacked, don't concern themselves with such petty granduer of being Arabs for obvious reasons. They don' have to shy away from their origins!

Further, those who have eduacted themselves (beyond the enlightenment of the madrassa) have liberated themselves of any such misgivings.

Unfortuantely, the last two categories are at a permium amongst the Moslem community of India.

There lies the identity crisis.

CG,

You have to buy Night Vision Goggles to understand this Dark Avenger!

I keep buying these NVDs, but I remain Vision denied in the Dark!

But I take solace in Milton.

'They also serve, who stands and wait'.

WHEN I consider how my light is spent
Ere half my days, in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present 5
My true account, lest He returning chide,—
Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?
I fondly ask:—But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies: God doth not need
Either man's work, or His own gifts, who best 10
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly; thousands at His bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest:—
They also serve who only stand and wait.

Ray
That must be "Paradise Regained"....they taught us in 10 grade..
Pray tell , where in the web world these are found.

I believe Dark Avenger , will not find this Paradise ,as such said by John Miltonm amusing..No 72 virgins...evil Kaffir poet, will rot in hell.

"Paradise regained" "OUR" country

Gandhi and a murder sans mystery
J Sri Raman


Who killed Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi? Or the Mahatma (Great Soul) as India’s millions still call him?

That may sound a somewhat inappropriate first question to ask on the birth anniversary (October 2) of the tallest leader of India’s anti-colonial freedom struggle. We must ask it, because others have just raised again questions about the martyrdom of the great man.

It is no subject, really, for a whodunit. The Mahatma fell to bullets fired by a fellow-Indian at the venue of a mass prayer meeting in New Delhi. The fitting end to a non-violent fighter’s life came on January 30, 1948. It came within six months of India’s independence that he had striven for and of the Partition of the subcontinent (into India and Pakistan) that he had striven against.

The assassin, Nathuram Godse, proudly confessed the crime. No mystery shrouded the motive, either.

Gandhi had enraged Godse and other Hindu-chauvinist activists by pleading for India’s good relations with Pakistan, now that it had come into being. By calling upon the rulers of independent India to make the magnanimous gesture of offering a compensation of Rs 550 million to Pakistan for losses suffered during the violent Partition. By walking into riot-torn areas and bringing peace back though his mere presence or fasts-unto-death that made the rioters drop arms. By continuing to work for Hindu-Muslim unity, as he had always done.

Gandhi had enraged a political and ideological camp: one that had paved the way for the Partition by identifying the nation with the religious majority, that had undertaken minority-bashing as a sacred mission, a far-right camp that was to turn fascist in power or in proximity to it.

Godse’s political camp was no closed secret. Until a while before the assassination, he belonged to the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), misleadingly meaning National Volunteers’ Association. Many see no mystery, too, about the motive behind Godse’s formal exit from the RSS on the eve of the assassination, with which it had been denying any association.

It did so again recently, when Human Resources Development Minister Arjun Singh said, in a public speech, that the “greatest achievement” of the RSS was the murder of the Mahatma. The RSS sprang to self-defence at the sarcastic observation. It threatened to sue Singh for defamation. This drew from him the clarification that the atmosphere of hate, an RSS creation, led to the assassination.

No journalist in his or her right mind rushes to endorse a minister. But Singh was right, in this instance. It was a fascist ideology that moved the finger that, in turn, pulled the trigger. It was fascist violence that felled a frail giant.

The ideology lives. So does the RSS, the patriarch of what India’s far right calls its parivar (family). They have continued to kill the Mahatma or what he stood for. The most outrageous of these assassinations took place in 2002 in Gandhi’s home state of Gujarat. The RSS and its entourage, including the infamous Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), have been defending the state-aided pogrom, which claimed about 3,000 Muslim lives. The RSS even pulled up former prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee, ever a loyal member of the parivar, for daring to suggest that the massacre might have had something to do with the far right’s defeat in the last general election.

The defeated Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has now declared its resolve to return to its “roots”, without the restraints imposed by office. This amounts to a warning that the Mahatma may die many a death again in the land he sought to deliver.

The writer is a journalist and peace activist based in Chennai, India

Originally Posted by chandragupta

Ray
That must be "Paradise Regained"....they taught us in 10 grade..
Pray tell , where in the web world these are found.

I believe Dark Avenger , will not find this Paradise ,as such said by John Miltonm amusing..No 72 virgins...evil Kaffir poet, will rot in hell.

It is from 'On his Blindness'.

http://www.sonnets.org/milton.htm

Just as a joke about Virgins in heaven since you raised it.

No offence meant. It is only about Osama.

Osama's trip to Heaven

After his death, Osama bin Laden went to heaven.There he was greeted by
George Washington, who proceeded to slap him across the face and yell at
him, "How dare you try to destroy the nation I helped conceive!"

Patrick Henry approached and punched Osama in the nose and shouted," You
wanted to end our liberties but you failed."

James Madison entered, kicked Osama in the groin and said," This is why I
allowed our government to provide for the common Defense!"

Thomas Jefferson came in and proceeded to beat Osama many times with a
long cane and said, "It was evil men like you that provided me the
inspiration to pen the Declaration of Independence!"

These beatings and thrashings continued as John Rudolph, James Monroe,
Robert E. Lee and 66 other early Americans came in and unleashed their !
anger on the Muslim terrorist leader.

As Osama lay bleeding and writhing in unbearable pain an Angel appeared. Bin
Laden wept in pain and said to the Angel, "This is not what you promised
me." The Angel replied, [B]"I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you in heaven.

Imagine this and the Two nation hooh hah:

Two Ahmadis held for writing Aslam-o-Alaikum

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: The police has registered a case against 15 people from the Jamaat-e-Ahmadia for printing Aslam-o-Alaikum and Inshallah on wedding cards, Geo TV reported on Wednesday. Among those who are charged include three brides and three grooms. Abdul Wahid, a local chief of Almi Majlis-e-Khatm Nabuat in Kinry Town of Mirpur Khas, registered a case against an Ahmadi family which got these words printed on wedding cards, the TV channel quoted a report by BBC Urdu Service. Wahid said Ahmadis were non-Muslims and therefore they should not be allowed to write words representing Muslim culture. The police has arrested two men, the TV channel reported

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...10-2004_pg7_28