THIS PERSON DOES NOT DESERVE MY REPLY.Originally Posted by visioninthedark
BYE BYE VISION..
YOU DONT DESERVE IT.
PLEASE GO TO YOUR FORUM WHICH YOU MODERATE AND MAKE THESE CLAIMS.
calm down man ..... chill ...
you're hyperventilating .... take a deep breath ....
I'm not RACIST ... and I DON'T WANT TO GET RID OF YOU .... where in heaven's name did u get that from??
or was it a cunning attempt to change the topic??
Lets talk about the Kushans .... I see you have nothing further to add ...
You claimed the Pakistan's existence was based on a FALSE THOERY .... you don't even recognize our right to EXIST ...THIS PERSON DOES NOT DESERVE MY REPLY.
BYE BYE VISION..
YOU DONT DESERVE IT.
PLEASE GO TO YOUR FORUM WHICH YOU MODERATE AND MAKE THESE CLAIMS.
no big deal .... because I know many in India have that attitude .... they keep imagining that they will retake Pakistan .... like the looser arabs imagine they will retake Israel ...
all I said .... was that our borders were not fair ..... Punjab should never have been divided .....
Punjab should all have been within Pakistan as it was always part of our history for 7000 years ....
why is it that you get offended when I talk about unfair borders? while you expect me to take crap from you questioning the VERY EXISTENCE AND RIGHT TO EXIST OF MY NATION?
are u someone special ... fragile .... who has to be treated with care .... while I should take any crap from you ....
Lets level the field .... you questioned our EXISTENCE .... which is much more vile and criminal than me saying that our Present borders do not reflect our 7000 years history ....
I didn't question your right to exist .... you questioned mine ...
now QUIT PLAYING VICTIM AND STICK TO THE TOPIC ....
Thank u for the compliment ... I'm the only one who can see the TRUTH even in the "darkest" of situations ...
you just gave me a promotion ....
May be Pakistan is blocking all the websites that portrays original history?
The link is working fine, it always is. I posted another article from the met museum yesterday. The follwing articles and image is also from the MetMuseum.
Pfff, they can very well be called as Chinese. You just proved that you dont have any knowledge on the subject in discussion. I'll re-quote yoour favourite phrase, Kushans didnt jump out from thin air. They did rule North India and Pakistan and Afghanistan. None of the sources claim othewise, except your weird logic and timelines. And now you just invented another word, administrative capital, I dont know where you pulled that one from!!If I use your logic ...... than the Chinese can Claim the Kushans to be Chinese .... since a part of China came within their empire .... just like only a part of India was within the empire ....
The name Kushan derives from the Chinese term Guishang, used in historical writings to describe one branch of the Yuezhi—a loose confederation of Indo-European people who had been living in northwestern China until they were driven west by another group, the Xiongnu, in 176–160 B.C. The Yuezhi reached Bactria (northwest Afghanistan and Tajikistan) around 135 B.C. Kujula Kadphises united the disparate tribes in the first century B.C. Gradually wresting control of the area from the Scytho-Parthians, the Yuezhi moved south into the northwest Indian region traditionally known as Gandhara (now parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan) and established a capital near Kabul. They had learned to use a form of the Greek alphabet, and Kujula's son was the first Indian ruler to strike gold coins in imitation of the Roman aureus exchanged along the caravan routes.
The rule of Kanishka, the third Kushan emperor who flourished from the late first to the early/mid-second century A.D., was administered from two capitals: Purushapura (now Peshawar) near the Khyber Pass, and Mathura in northern India.
Claiming them invaders just as Pakistanis is just plain absurd. Kushans ruled the whole of Northwest India (incld Pakistan and Afghanistan). What is with you guys?? Claiming a common history (to the sub-continent) as your's just shows your insecurity. Is it becoz you feel inferior wrt India, that you need Kushans to boost your sagging complex and morale?? Do you even need a new identity?? Will you feel better that if I say you are direct descendant to Kanishka-I ? Say so, I'll just do it, but don masqurade history with your racist and biased mind. Enuff already with your Aryan crap and now Kushans.
If I go by your logic, Kushans from China conquered Pakistan and Afghanistan. They conquered Pakistan before North India, thats the difference. Pakistan is an invaded land for Kushans, Bactrians, Ghaznavi, Ghori, Moghuls and every one of the Sub-continen rulers.Chronology of Kushan History
as u can see ..... northern India was conquered by the Kushans based in what is Pakistan .... it was a conquered land ...
Poor analogy. Read above.as I said .... Rome conquered France .... but can the French claim that the roman empire was French???
If true, then the Kushans, Mauryans, Mughals and the British (combined togeher, they ruled Pakistan for around 800 years) ruled Pakistan from Mathura, Pataliputra and Delhi. Pakistan was just in the periphery.a conquered peripheral land cannot claim to be the originators of an empire ....
Last edited by Jay; 30 Sep 04, at 16:05.
A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!
British were unfair, they shouldve handed over all the areas under a United India which would be ruled by rulers from Delhi or Calcutta.
If I go by your rightful theory, Pakistan should not have existed, oh well, we cannot change history.Pakistan today is not what it should have looked like .... we were robbed of many areas that should have rightfully been ours ...
Yep and Pakistan should be a state in India, in the periphery, as always, ruled from Delhi or may be Calcutta.even this claim about Mathura .... only reinforces our claim .... if partition had been fair .... all these Pakistani lands would have been within the boundaries of Pakistan ... but was stolen from us ...
Last edited by Jay; 30 Sep 04, at 16:38.
A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!
As if you had some logic in your postings other than those timelines written by some inferior feeling Pakistani. do you have anything else??
Last edited by Jay; 30 Sep 04, at 16:37.
A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!
Pakistan came in to being becoz of Jinnah's vision, which I and the rest here claim as faulty reasons. He was scared that the martial Pakistani people will be subdjucated and persecuted by Hindus. We are not here to discuss about your right to exist now, we are discussing about the origins of a nation, your nation, Pakistan.
The next thing we would want is another 54 million poor people banging the doors of the federal govt for food.no big deal .... because I know many in India have that attitude .... they keep imagining that they will retake Pakistan .... like the looser arabs imagine they will retake Israel ...
True, Pakistan as a whole should just be a state in India. Well, we cannot change history, can we??all I said .... was that our borders were not fair ..... Punjab should never have been divided .....
7000? I thot its 70,000. Anyway, enough of your wet dreams already.Punjab should all have been within Pakistan as it was always part of our history for 7000 years ....
Oh, talk all you want, you want Delhi, Kolkatta, Mumbai?? Just annexe Pakistan with India, then everything will be in a single nation.why is it that you get offended when I talk about unfair borders? while you expect me to take crap from you questioning the VERY EXISTENCE AND RIGHT TO EXIST OF MY NATION?
I dont know why you keep on harping about your glorious 7000 years of existance. I need to type the same answer again and again and again.Lets level the field .... you questioned our EXISTENCE .... which is much more vile and criminal than me saying that our Present borders do not reflect our 7000 years history ....
If you are idiotic enough to think that proving Jinnah's vision as faulty will be questioning Pakistan's (or shall I say, your) existance, then well, what can I say. Yep, we are victims of partition, it was so unfair.....ROFLMAO!!I didn't question your right to exist .... you questioned mine ...
now QUIT PLAYING VICTIM AND STICK TO THE TOPIC ....
Last edited by Jay; 30 Sep 04, at 16:37.
A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!
Just look at your own posts above ...... just count how many times have you yourself said Pakistan should NEVER have existed ... !!!
By the Way ..... u're attitude does not refute history .... The Kushans MOVED to Pakistan and from there ..... conquered other lands .... while their Capital and major cities were within Pakistan ...
they did NOT rule from a Capital in China ...
You are against the very existence of Pakistan .... I simply say that our borders DID NOT REFLECT A NOTION THAT HAS EXISTED FOR 7000 years ...
facts are for all to see ....
our borders should have included All of Punjab ... and Dehli and most of Rajastan ...
infact .... if there ever was any nation that has a somewhat unified history and existence in the subcontinent .... it was the land that was labeled "Pakistan" in 1947 ....
The land that was labeled "India" nearly always (with the exception of two or three times in history) NEVER EXISTED AS A UNIFIED STATE ...
It was the British who CREATED a political entity our of states and named then "India" ... Pakistan on the other hand was a new label to a people and nation that has existen for 7000 years ...
look at your own map that you provided ...
just superimpose a map of Pakistan on this map and you'll see what I mean ...
look at where the central cities of the Kushans were ....
they were NEVER "Indian" ....
Infact even the name "India" is a misnomer .... its an attempt to associate today's political India to an ancient land that actually NEVER refered to what is today "India" ...
Its an attempt to USURP an identity that was not your's and a name that didn't refer to what is today known as "India" ...
Last edited by visioninthedark; 30 Sep 04, at 16:46.
By the way .... the link provided y Hari Om is working now ...
Its of an ART MUSEUM ... not a ver authentic source when talking about History ....
Yeah, I guess you can read it in the context, like for instance,
Pakistan today is not what it should have looked like .... we were robbed of many areas that should have rightfully been ours ...
>>If I go by your rightful theory, Pakistan should not have existed, oh well, we cannot change history.Yeah their capital was in Mathura and it is in India, North India to be precise.By the Way ..... u're attitude does not refute history .... The Kushans MOVED to Pakistan and from there ..... conquered other lands .... while their Capital and major cities were within Pakistan ...
they did NOT rule from a Capital in China ...
I just dont give a damn abou what you claim, the crux of this discussion was Jinnah's faulty vision and his implementation of TNT. Again, I just dont give a shit for what ahppened 70000 years ago. For christ sake Pakistan is not the same nation (or should I say nation with the same borders) as it were in 1947. Now you want to compare 70000 years, err, 7000 years of glorious nation??You are against the very existence of Pakistan .... I simply say that our borders DID NOT REFLECT A NOTION THAT HAS EXISTED FOR 7000 years
You can too, if you can only read and analyse it logically.facts are for all to see ....
Ah, not again, let me say that for one last time, annexe Pakistan with India, your borders will be from Iran to Burma.our borders should have included All of Punjab ... and Dehli and most of Rajastan ...
Are you talking about the 300 years of British rule, and 600 years of Mughal rule and may be 100 years of Kushan rule and 78 years of Mauryan rule ?? Yes, Pakistan should be annexed with India and then ruled from Delhi or may be Calcutta.infact .... if there ever was any nation that has a somewhat unified history and existence in the subcontinent .... it was the land that was labeled "Pakistan" in 1947
And may be the whole world is wrong in calling us India then. Who got freedom in 14 august 1947 and labelled them as Pakistan, land of pure, land of the aryan, martial race, 6 ft tall, fair, straight nosed nation?? We didnt. May be is Jinnah's fault.The land that was labeled "India" nearly always (with the exception of two or three times in history) NEVER EXISTED AS A UNIFIED STATE
Yep, go whine to Mountbatten and Jinnah and switch the names. Again its 70,000 years, not 7000.It was the British who CREATED a political entity our of states and named then "India" ... Pakistan on the other hand was a new label to a people and nation that has existen for 7000 years ...
I see Pakistan and North India being ruled by Kushans.look at your own map that you provided ...
just superimpose a map of Pakistan on this map and you'll see what I mean ...
You mean geographically central cities? Purushpura is centre. But then Gandhara is Afghanistan. Mathura is as Indian as Dina Wadia (Jinnah).look at where the central cities of the Kushans were .... they were NEVER "Indian" ....
Well, go talk to all the publishers and then remove the name and association of Modern India with that of the ancient one.Infact even the name "India" is a misnomer .... its an attempt to associate today's political India to an ancient land that actually NEVER refered to what is today "India" ...
Till then give us a break from your 7000 years, err 70,000 years of glorious, unified existance.
Also, meanwhile cmpare the borders of nation Pakistan from 1947 and 2004.
Err, talk about inferiority complex!!Its an attempt to USURP an identity that was not your's and a name that didn't refer to what is today known as "India" ...
Last edited by Jay; 30 Sep 04, at 17:08.
A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!
So which one is authentic?? Free Encylopedia? Brittanica?? Wikipedia??
Or its just your very own book that some Pakistani wrote, where you copied hese timelines from and forwarded by one other very knowledgable Pakistani ??eh??
A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!
Since you claim MetMuseum is not a "very auhentic" source, (I dont know what is authentic anymore), let me post some facts from MetMuseum.
Yep, 5 million idiots like to see lies from not a very authentic source every year.What is the Metropolitan's average annual attendance?
Over the past several years, attendance at the Museum (including the Main Building and The Cloisters) has averaged more than five million.
See, 75,000 BC, so its almost before 70,000 years. I think that glory rightfully belong to Pakistanis who existed as a single unified naion for 70,000 years.What are the oldest works of art in the Museum's collection?
Archeulian flints from Deir El Bahri in Egypt, dating to the Lower Paleolithic period (ca. 300,000–75,000 B.C.), are the oldest objects in the Museum's collection. The Museum is constantly rotating its work on display, so ask for the location of these flints at the Information Desk in the Great Hall. For further information about the Museum's collection of ancient Egyptian art, see the Egyptian Art section of the online Collection.
Section from a frieze with a seated Buddha and attendants, Kushan period, ca. 2nd–3rd century
Mathura, Uttar Pradesh, India
Red sandstone; H. 7 15/16 in. (19.8 cm), L. 31 5/8 in. (80.2 cm)
Gift of Jeffrey B. Soref, in honor of Martin Lerner, 1998 (1998.488.2)
This is a lie too. They got this from Pakistan.
Yo, big apple, you guys are one big fat liars.Who owns the building?
The City of New York owns the Museum building and the property on which it is located.
This is their mission statement. And whatta bunch of liars!The mission of The Metropolitan Museum of Art is to collect, preserve, study, exhibit, and stimulate appreciation for and advance knowledge of works of art that collectively represent the broadest spectrum of human achievement at the highest level of quality, all in the service of the public and in accordance with the highest professional standards
http://www.metmuseum.org/visitor/faq_hist.htm
Write to them Vision, Ye shall give them Vision in this deceitful world!
Last edited by Jay; 30 Sep 04, at 17:18.
A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!
Jay ....
your bantering adds nothing to this thread ...
The capitals of the Kushans were Bagram and Peshawar .... and much much later Mathura which was on the fringe of the empire and was an administrative center ...
The site I quoted is run by professors from OXFORD UNIVERSITY ...
the site you quote is an ART MUSEUM ....
since when is an ART MUSEUM considered an authentic source on HISTORY ... I really don't know ....
you are grabbing at very weak straws here .... they won't stop your theory from drowning ....
about the inferiority/superiority complex .... I won't comment on that ....
all I say is for an impartial reader of this thread to do some research as to whether in ancient texts the words "India" refered to what is TODAY known as India or not ....
and also to see for how long in the past 7000 years has "India" existed as a united state .... and do a comparative study with those areas that are today known as "Pakistan" .... and see which existed as a cohesive nation for the past 7000 years ....
I suggest you adopt a scholarly mentality and attitude and quite these female attributes of innuendos and indirect insults ....
and do some research yourself .... don't use Indian or Pakistani Historical sources .... use independent historical sources so that you can come to an independent conclusion ....
I doubt you have the ability to takeup this type of impartial and independent research .... since you are blinded by what has been fed to you in your biased Indian history books ...
Last edited by visioninthedark; 30 Sep 04, at 17:29.
Friends can any one of u just answer a simple question of mine??
i am even giving answers.just care to agree or disagree with some justification...
When & how was pakistan formed??
1947.... under the concept of two nation theory..
How were the areas selected for partition ??
the states where muslim league got majority were declared as the new paksitan of 1947.
What did jinnah want pakistan to be .. ??
1. if a secular state for minorities then
a. clearly paksitanis threw everyone except muslims out .. clearly not even close to .......secularism for the minoritites except rights for the muslims.and defies the declaration of 1940..
b. Why were only the muslim dominated areas selected... theres not even a reference of Muslim League /Jinnah asking for any areas rich in other minorities.. say kerala etc.. ??...
c. Theres no historical reference of Jinnah /Mislim League calling the Other minorities to join pakistan as their nation..(remember they wanted pakistan for all minorities.. ) Can anyone give me just one reference where they actually wanted it..
Frankly if anyone can oppose one of these points i think we can accept for the formation of pakistan as is accordance with the declaration of 1940 and the two nation theory that created it Otherwise clearly it defies teh 1940 declaration..Frankly they didnt even tryto comply with it.. .Theres no reference that they even tried to help non muslims...
2. if a secular state for muslims... this sounds absurd..if there are just muslims then whats the need of secualr state it just means same as an islamic republic .. since all non muslims are to be thrown out are were thrown out too..
3. if a muslim state .. waht was the declaration of 1940 for..?
Clearly u can see that the way paksitan was formed was in no way in acccordance with the 1940 decaration....So the question is why was if formed ....
1. As visioninthedark claims .. paksitan was saperate nationin the last 7000 years..without defying ur logic .. lets for a time being assume taht its true.. then think about this..
There were 20% or so hindus in the present day pakistan and the similar ratio of bengali hindus in bengladesh.At least we all agree on this ponit .So.
1. If u say that paksitan was created bec history says it like this..then why was bangladesh included..
2. history never divided thsi region on the besis of religion...did it..??.... then how can u support the creation of paksitan in accordance with the historic nations that existed before.
3. How many of these empires were muslim that u are trying to support an pure islamic country on the basis of it.???...
4. Did any of these nations asked non muslims to move out of their territory as they were unpure.. LOL...How many of them .I bet u cant name even a single ruler who did it except of course the nation of jinnah..
Frankly with all that i stated above i can claim taht creation of paksitan cannot be supported by the
1. 7000 years of saperate nationhood..
2. the decaration of 1940.
So the next option is just for a saperate home for muslims taht the muslim league watnted ..Lets explore thsi option too...
1. If this was a general feeling between the muslims al over india then why the muslims of the south didnt move.. LOL.
2. Why are there still 13.5 % muslims in india..
3. Most of the muslims who lived in north india and moved out to paksitan were forced to leave as they knew that staying here would mean death in the hands of mercenaries/looters. The fact that there still remain so many of muslims in the norhtern india shows that these people prefered to stay at there home and not move to the land of pure in spite of all the odds. Think about many who broke of and left to save their lives.. Frankly not to move to a land of pure but to save their lives..
Clearly it wasnt a commong opinion. The basis of creation of paksitan on the basis of votes gained by muslim league in these 6 states. forgets to mention a simple fact that elections were for selecting the representatives for the assemblies and not for deciding wether tehy want a saperate state of not.... At least choosing a leader dsnt mean taht the public will approve with what all he is gonna do..its dsnt give the leaders rights to decide wether they want teh region to be a saperate country.
the musllim league instead manipulated teh results of teh elections for creation of a pakistan..
the fact is taht muslim league betrayed all the residents of british india at that time even the muslims..when were teh muslims asked to give their decision about waht tehy want .. it was alwasy in teh hands of muslim league to decide.. LOL..
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