by Davis_Chan
One well-received Western viewpoint has it that the korean war was the conspiracy of the communists and well-planned in advanced.Is it the truth? Not really.
It is difficult for historians to trace back to identify who shot the first bullet,but a well known fact is both the North and South prepared for the coming war within a period of time in advanced.At its initial stage, the Korean War was a typical civil war aimed at reunifying the divided peninsula.
After successful landing in Inchon in Sep.15, 1950, US forces and its vassal troops gain the battle predominance in Korea. However, when US vanguards arrived at the 38th parallel in Sep.29,1950, there erupted an aboil dispute inside the US and UN Security Council. Several days after the war took place, US government explained the reason to involve in Korea in UNSC was to: "drive DPRK out of South Korea". So if the troops across the border between North and South and continues to smash DPRK forces, the nature of the war would be totally changed from civil war to internationalized war due to the purpose of the war turn to conquer the DPRK.
Sept. 27, 1950.The British intelligence learned of a Chinese military council decision to intervene in Korea. US ignored this information. Simultaneously Chou En Lai announced publicly that "China will send troops across the frontier to participate in defense of North Korea." The questions are: Did China really prepare for the upcoming war? If the answer is negative, then why china still participated it?
The answer in allusion to the first question is China was unready. Evidences shows that there was no consensus on the Korean issue among leaders of the socialist countries before the outbreak of the war. Take the aspect of China for example, even only one month before the war broke out, did Mao know the North Korea's military plan. At that time, China did not have any embassy in DPRK. Moreover, China had decided to demobilize 1 million of its troops in the hope of reducing military expenditure to buttress its economic recovery program in early 1950. After the war broke out. Mao Zedung reportedly learnt of the war from Western news broadcast.
The outcome of the war would have been entirely different if it were well planned beforehand. Obviously, such communist conspiracy theory is a groundless exaggeration. Personally i think it reflects the ideological bias of the western world. The following question is: were communist China so warlike that run a risk in an unpredictable war?
There had a great bifurcation among china's leadership on the issue of sending troops to Korea, because China's economy was extreme weakness after World war 2 and followed three-years civil war. The newly-borned PRC had a behindhand industry, the army equiped with poor weapons and without any air cover at the beginning by facing the opponent armies armed to the teeth.
At a certain moment in history, war has become the only choice for a country, if the country cherishes its independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity as well as its people's peaceful life.
Perhaps Mao zedung's opinion typically represents China's motive of the intervention: "If we do not send troops, the enemy will control all the way up to the environs of the Yalu River, and, as far as the boasts of the reactionary forces within China are concerned. they would gradually grow higher and it would be disadvantageous for us in various respects. The whole of the Northeast Defense forces would be pinned down on the front line and the military forces in southern Manchuria would be completely dominated. For this reason, we came to the following conclusion. We must participate in the war. The benefits from participating in the war would be very great. The damage from not participating in war would be very great."
To make a long story short, China needed a buffer area in the northeast. It seems China has achieved this target.
China view this war is a victory since its forces had successfully pressed the battlefront from Yalu river to as far as 37th parallel. Although there had some setbacks which caused the retreat, China had finally stabilized the battlefront in the 38th parallel.
On October 25, 1953, the Associated Press reported that a total of 1.47 million so called "UN troops" had been killed in the war. A Japanese magazine, recorded a figure of 1.16 million. According to the Chinese People's Volunteer Army record, the Chinese and North Korean sides jointly wiped out 1.09 million enemy troops (136,000 by the People's Republic of Korea), broken down into 390,000 US troops, 660,000 troops of the Republic of Korea, and 20,000 vassal troops.
The China paid a high price for its victory. The overall casualty rate was 360,000, including 115,000 war dead and 221,000 wounded, plus a further 25,000 victims of accidents and illness. A total of 29,000 soldiers were reported missing or captured.
The comments of the war and its significance from the two top commanders in both sides are different. The general commander of the UN forces, General Clark, said, “This is the first time in United States history for a US general to sign his name on a cease-fire document of a war without victory.” CPV commander Peng Dehuai, said, "the days in the past several centuries when Western invaders could occupy a country by simply erecting a few canons on an Oriental coast are gone for ever."
Indeed, without the Korean war, the PRC would be viewed internationally as a third-rate country consisted of a great amount of sick men. The result of world war 2 shows that Japan was defeated by US and USSR basically rather than China and the outcome of communist forces against the Kuomintang's army armed by US weapons didn't prove anything in american's eyes. Only by passing the world's most strictly war test, did China be recognize as one of the world powers.
It was when the Great Way declined,that human kindness and morality arose.
It was when intelligence and knowledge appeared,that the Great Artifice began.
You're not military, so you've can be forgiven for not seeing the obvious. The decision to intervene in Korea HAD to be made when the NKs were pounding the Pusan Perimeter. The Chinese needed that much time to organize, armed, and march that many men with that much equipment (there were 4 artillery divisions that crossed over). Sorry, just does not jive with military realities.
And the Korean War deaths by the Allies are well recorded. You should've done better.
Chimo
Originally Posted by Davis_Chan
According to this university, Stalin AND Mao both knew of Kim Il Sung's plans to invade S.Korea.
1950/04 - Stalin met with Kim Il-sung in Moscow but would not support Kim's plan to invade SK unless Mao agreed to help: "If you should get kicked in the teeth, I shall not lift a finger. You have to ask Mao for all the help." Kim visited Mao in Beijing and assured Mao as he had assured Stalin that the U.S. would not respond. Mao gave his approval because Mao was planning to invade Formosa and wanted Stalin's help. Stalin began to send Soviet supplies to NK and to plan the invasion, using the cover story that it would be a "counterattack" provoked by an alleged attack by SK. Mao was preoccupied with planning the Formosa attack and was surprised when the sudden invasion began in June
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/20th/korea.html
Sources:
Goncharov, S. N. and John W. Lewis, Xue Litai. Uncertain Partners: Stalin, Mao, and the Korean War. Stanford, Calif.: Stanford University Press, 1993. This book uses newly-released documents from China and Russia to argue that the Korean War was caused by Stalin and Mao and Kim Il-sung.
Stueck, William Whitney. The Korean War: an International History. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press, 1995.
Chen, Jian. China's Road to the Korean War : the Making of the Sino-American Confrontation. New York : Columbia University Press, 1994.
Williams, William J., ed. Revolutionary War, A: Korea and the Transformation of the Postwar World. Chicago, Imprint Publications, 1993, paper. Includes the essay by Jon Halliday, "A Secret War" on the air war between Soviet MIG-15s and U.S. jets, resulting in the loss of 1309 U.S. planes to Russian guns.
Haas, Michael E. In the Devil's Shadow: UN Special Operations During the Korean War. Naval Institute Special Warfare Series, published March 10, 2000. 272 pages
Courtesy of:
Steve Schoenherr Home Page
Professor of History, University of San Diego.
http://home.sandiego.edu/~ses/
Kim wanted to invade and was egged on by Stalin and Mao. They promised unwavering support for the communist expansion. China planned for war before the first shot was fired.
"Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.
It wasn't well planned? What kind of stupid idiotic propaganda horse pucky is that? Two entire army groups (13th and 9th), not two entire armies, that's two entire army GROUPS, as in at least 2 armies per group, to attack the US 8th Army (as in singular) with the sole objective of destroying 8th Army. The PVA managed to no less to surround the 8th Army at least 6 times (and each time, the 8th Army broke through).
If anything, it was too well planned, so focus in destroying the 8th Army that it ignore just driving the 8th Army into the sea. Despite that, they still managed to inflict the longest retreat in USArmy history.
Not well planned ... horse pucky.
Chimo
I have found that there is always at least one dipshiit on this forum that will argue any possible theory regardless of topic to the bitter end- no matter how stupid.
Apparently, this kid is just the latest....
How much better would Koreans be today if the UN forces had succeeded in liberating North Korean from the communists? It is true that the Chinese demanded a buffer zone, and if the UN's approach had been a bit more 'diplomatic', they may well have been able avoid Chinese intervention while still liberating much of the north, by leaving a wide 'belt' of mountainous territory toward the Chinese border in the hands of the communists. Of course, your angle on this is pretty apparent when you try to paint the communists as the 'legitimate' Korean government trying to 'liberate' the south from the 'vassal' troops of the US. Hmmm, guess who's better off now? Personally I don't have much difficulty in choosing between being a 'vassal' of the US vs. Moscow or Beijing.
http://www.whyy.org/tv12/franklinfacts/apr0402_4.jpg
Says it all.
OMG. Is that Photoshopped or what? Looks like N. Koreans are the ultimate 'conservationists'.
Most other pictures show the same.
That was just a 'WOW!' picture. A more objective picture is formed when you realise that they began in 1953 both as poor as each other and as poor as Kenya, yet now NK has a GDP per capita of $1,800 and SK about $23,000.
Information is extremely unreliable but it suggests between 1 and 3 million have starved so far in a famine starting in the '90s.
Its regime is apparently the most totalitarian in the world.
Facist South. Communist North. Take your pick. Up until the end of the Cold War, living standards between the two were equivelent.
I really doubt that. The decision to intervene was taken when the NKs were pounding the Pusan Perimeter. The Chinese might have stayed out if the US/UN might have not crossed the 38th but the point of no return was the 38th. If the US/UN had not intervened, you would have seen Chinese troops just re-enforcing the border.
Rhee was no better than Kim.Hmmm, guess who's better off now? Personally I don't have much difficulty in choosing between being a 'vassal' of the US vs. Moscow or Beijing.
Chimo
Started off 'equivalent' perhaps. The South was improving, even before the end of the 'Cold War' (depending on exactly how you're defining it and therefore exactly when you consider it having ended). The North was stagnating or even getting worse. When one of your 'industries' is charging money for people to leave and join their relatives in the south, something is wrong.
I've not heard that the Chinese had defined a 'trip wire' at the 38th. I'd be interested in learning more if you have any references on this. My impression was that the Chinese started making noises, as the UN moved further and further north. They clearly did not want US forces on their border and wanted some sort of 'buffer state'. I'm not sure that the 38th was the minimum they would have accepted though.
Perhaps, but the North remains locked in a hereditary Stalinst state, whereas the South found a path to reform.
Moscow went broke and Peking was too poor to pick up the slack.
I was not clear. The Chinese decision to intervene got nothing to do with a buffer zone. See WAB -Korea: Reluctant Dragons and Red Conspiracies. The Chinese were coming in regardless of the situation. The question is whether they would be coming in shooting or just re-enforce defences. Had the US/UN forces stopped at the 38th, and do recall that by this time, the NKs had ceased to be an army, the Chinese would have been presented with an extremely long supply lines and no assembly area that is not under the watch of the Americans. They would not have been in a position to launch offensives against well entrenched forces ... and into hostile territory.
The South's path was not bloodless and they paid for their own freedom and reforms through blood against their own dictators.
Chimo
Interesting stuff.
"Contrary to assertions in Max Hastings' The Korean War, the single best-selling history of the conflict, the Soviet Union, North Korea, and China's leaders were deeply involved from the conflict's beginning. Hastings claimed China's entry was provoked by the rapid advance of American troops through North Korea in October 1950. Because of the presence of the Soviet Union's large military advisory group in North Korea during 1945¬50 and the acknowledged heavy flow of Soviet weaponry and equipment to the pre-war North Korean army, no serious historian doubted Moscow's complicity in the June 1950 attack. New evidence, however, also clearly demonstrates Chinese involvement in the invasion of South Korea. It is now clear that the war was planned and coordinated by the three Communist powers over a ten-month period, from April 1949 until February 1950."
I'm still in the 'traditional' camp along with Max Hastings et al until I read something more authoritative though. There's little doubt that the Soviet Union initially armed the North Koreans, but suggesting that both China and the Soviet Union were both 'involved' together with North Korea's prep's for the invasion of the South would seem to suggest more cooperation between Moscow and Beijing than existed at the time.
The South Koreans may have 'suffered' and 'struggled' to achieve their freedom, but at least they succeeded. It maybe speculation on my part, however, I have the impression that what North Koreans would face if they tried to 'force' change would be many times worse than what the Southerns faced.
For an interesting comparison between the North and South Korean economies, check out:
http://econc10.bu.edu/economic_syste...orth_South.htm
It appears that the amazing growth of the South Korean economy started in the sixties. Describing the North Korean economy as 'stagnating' is a generous description.
Very simple question. What was time frame required to organize and send two army groups into Korea? The Max Hastings group ignores this fundamental question.
Chimo
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With Quote
Share this thread with friends: