Parihaka

What's wrong with being a postage stamp sized nation

Ray

Yes, I think if another postage stamp nation can, not only survive, but has a fiercely independent policy of their own, then why not?!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

citanon

Further set back, or bait?

Agnostic Muslim

I disagree that unilateral actions resolve the problem in the long run, and they weaken the GoP's hand with respect to building up any consensus on the WoT.

My point was that you haven't destroyed the threat in Afghanistan yet, despite carte blanche to do what you want and the apathy towards collateral damage you indicate - so I doubt miracles will be achieved by expanding into even more territory.

If change is indeed what is required, cutting down on the drugs and weapons trade in Afghanistan supplying the Taliban would be another good place to start.

Unilateral action in FATA, perhaps some sanctuaries might be destroyed, but you will not be operating in a vacuum, and the repercussions from such moves within Pakistan, at least any of a magnitude to bring any real change, to me nullify any perceived advantage.

But as I said, lets see.

To go back to a prior comment of yours:
Patently false - the idea was always of a greater Afghanistan encompassing areas of Pakistan.

That idea is what drove a refusal to recognize pakistan at its creation, subsequent attempts of subterfuge and igniting separatism within Pakistan and the rapturous cheerleading by Indian commentators and analysts of "many homelands in Pakistan ".

It is not the President of Pakistan who is refusing to recognize the Durand, or "save the Pashtun" on the other side. If change is what NATO desires, getting the Mayor of Kabul to stop "gnawing on old threads" might be a far more productive exercise.

Salim:

What should NATO do?

Cut down on the drug and weapons trade, put in more troops, man the border better (which is what the latest movement on the Durand appears to be), get Karzai to "stop gnawing on old threads", improve development efforts both in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

And perhaps improve on this:

There is a lot to be fixed at "home", but then that requires acknowledging ones own faults first - indeed it seems a resort to a "little barbarism" might be preferred over that.

__________________
Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah

King Six

Apparently the U.S have now abandoned said post.

BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | US troops abandon Afghan outpost

Edit: Also, that feature that automatically changes links into the headline is a cool feature

Ray

[QUOTE]The GoP has weakened itself on its own. In fact, it is moving in a muddled manner giving importance to issue like handing over to the UN the inquiry of Bhutto's assassination etc, when it should focus on inflation, rising prices and terrorism.

It appears you are not reading my commentaries!

GoP is suffering from a strong bout of schizophrenia. The Terrorist are gnawing its innards and yet it cannot forsake Islam and the concept of Jihad. Even Musharraf tread this zone very carefully. One can't have its cake and eat it too! Islam has to be Supreme or the Nation has to be Supreme. The choice is for GoP. Terrorism is not what Islam advocates is what I learn from various Moslem posters.


It take two hands to clap. It requires two minds to think on the same lines. Unfortunately, Pakistan is concerned about her interest and the US is interested in her own.

Pakistan is worried that if Afghanistan is ascendant and stable, it could raise the Pakhtunistan issue to reinforce her claim that the Durand Line is bogus, taking a leaf from Pakistan's friend, China's claim that McMohan Line is the result of an unequal treaty. Pakistan would be up a gum tree since she cannot say that her only friend China has a bum claim!! And given the bon homie and blurring of lines of the Pastuns causative of Zia's grandiose schemes, Pakhtoonistan may become a reality causing a Domino effect in Pakistan!!

US, on the other hand, has her economic and strategic concerns which are opposite to Pakistan's.


If the drugs are stopped, Pakistan's economy will collapse and many Politicians and Generals will be wiped out. Check it out on Google.


If Pakistan and the US act in tandem, repercussion will be zero.

Has the terrorism not gone down in Kashmir ever since the CBMs started?


Yes, Pashtuns want that.

That is Pakistan's greatest fear and it is historical.

Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan was a Pashtun patriot and he was of the opinion that there should be an independent Pakhtunistan. NWFP however joined Pakistan. But Jinnah being the wise person, saw the Pashtun ambition rising and so he sacked the elected Chief Minister and installed his own puppet. What you see today in NWFP is the simmering discontent at the incorrect accession coming to boil!

It is not that Indian commentators are talking of many Homelands in Pakistan. The Paksitanis are demanding so. I don't want to upset you, but, look around, Excepting Punjab (who think Paksitan is theirs alone), there are secessionist activities everywhere. You can blame anyone for it, but there is no smoke without a fire!

If Paksitan supports the Chinese claim that McMohan Line is bogus, then how is the Durand Line etched in stone? It has divided the people of the same stock arbitarily. That is not so with the McMohan Line and more so, it was between Tibet and British India!

And by the way how has Saksgam given away to China? Too much of Moghul dadagiri?

Pakistan Generals and Politicians who draw on the drug trade will shrivel at the idea! Careful. Lots of people go missing in Pakistan!
And perhaps improve on this:



In no way does it mean Pakistan or Pakistanis are barbaric!

It is just that the Taliban is barbaric! And they are a part of Pakistan even though the GoP thinks they are bums, which they are.

There are many sane Paksitanis who share the opinion of the GoP.

AM,

I expect a reply.

GraniteForge

Call it propaganda, but a lot of Americans think that this is absolutely what is going on, and they tend to strongly support it. I was at a political function yesterday evening, attended mostly by Republicans, with some Libertarians and a few anti-government types, and this attack was a topic of much conversation.

The consensus was that the US is in a war against Islam. The question wasn't "will the US invade another Muslim country," but "which will be first, Iran or Pakistan?"

Ray

Indeed it is a Moslem world propaganda that Islam is under attack!

Islam is NOT under attack! Terrorists are!

I am not influenced by what the US consensus states, I go by events.

If Islam was under attack, they would have by now turned over and played dead!

Agnostic Muslim

The GoP is indeed dysfunctional currently, but it is also a coalition government that is only a few months old. Lets not forget that the Maliki government in Iraq was written off a year or two ago, and is now demanding a timetable of withdrawal from the US.

The GoP is a coalition government that has to balance competing priorities and agenda's from partners, the electorate and other stakeholders, and arrive at a consensus on how to tackle extremism. Such a consensus cannot be built instantaneously, or in a matter of months, especially when you have a slowing economy and inflation at 21 percent.

It is not simply a matter of "forsaking Islam" as you put it. The situation in Pakistan is not for the US to resolve, nor can the US resolve it. It must be resolved by Pakistanis through a national dialog and introspection, and that cannot happen if the US is seen to be 'invading' Pakistan.

The US can advance her interests by acting on the measures I mentioned.

First off, that is not the point Parihaka raised. His argument of an "old ideal of a greater Pakistan" being completely wrong is what I was pointing out - it was always a "greater Afghanistan", and the West has jumped on to that bandwagon with Ralph Peters "new map of the ME".

Your arguments about Pakistan's concerns over Pashtunistan in fact validate my point - those concerns arise out of Afghanistan's historical attempts to stoke secessionist sentiment in Pakistani territory - NWFP and Balochistan, and India's close relationship with those governments.

The two claims (McMahon and Durand) are not quite the same - the people of the NWFP voted overwhelmingly in a referendum to join Pakistan, despite the most popular politician of the NWFP at the time opposing the idea of Pakistan.


Well too bad for the Pakistani economy and generals - its not like the US cares for the Pakistani economy anyway if it is contemplating unilateral incursions.

Like I said, there is plenty for NATO to fix in Afghanistan first.

I am not advocating that we not act in unison, but that unilateral US strikes of magnitude that provides tangible results area flawed strategy for long term stability in the region. Pakistan's problems have to be solved by Pakistan.

Ray,

The majority of our senior membership at PFF is Pashtun, and a large part of our regular membership as well. Many of them live in the NWFP, and have family scattered around various parts of FATA as well.

The picture that emerges from interactions with them and listening to their views about the situation is not one of "separatism".

The above is of course anecdotal evidence.

Moving on to the reality on the ground

KAGK's successor party is now an avid defender of the federation - their manifesto talks of autonomy for the provinces within the federation. So the largest and most popular Pashtun nationalist party now talks of remaining part of the Pakistani Federation - some secessionist movement that!

Of two of the largest nationalist parties in Sindh, one changed its manifesto, late last year, to demand greater autonomy within the federation, rather than secession, the other rarely utters a peep, now and then perhaps, and of course, guess which party commands the most popularity in Sindh, and has for a long time now?

The pro-federation PPP of course!

The only province where your doomsday analysis (wouldn't expect anything else from an Indian ) is correct is in Balochistan, and even there the BLA is currently making more enemies within the Baloch, and forcing the current Baloch nationalist leadership to distance itself from them.

Hostility still remains, but at least there is an acknowledgment of the wrongs done Balochistan in the past by this government, and hopefully the provincial autonomy amendments, that are a part of the judicial package currently in limbo, will be passed to remove most of these tensions.

Is everything hunky dory? No, there is tension, and so long as the center retains the amount of control it does currently, there will always be room for complaint that the "establishment" is the source of all ills, hence the urgent need to pass the judicial package and delete the "Concurrent List" (that determines which subjects of governance remain with the Center).

By the way, you really must peruse some literature that is more objective on Pakistan, instead of this "hate pakistan" stuff you seem to be addicted to.

Here is an excellent link on the events leading up to the sacking of KAJK in teh NWFP in 1947. I'll post a bit of an excerpt:

I think the reference was towards committing 'barbarism', on anyone who got in the way, not a commentary on the Taliban's 'attributes'. To that end a point was made about any lack of interest in the forty or so civilians killed.

Parihaka

Oh cry me a river. Afghanistan has been incapable of even farting in Pakistans direction since before the Soviet invasion, let alone being in the position of 'encompassing areas of Pakistan'.
The idea that Afghanistan is being used as a stooge by India is equally absurd: again, Afghanistan has been what the NWFP now are: lawless wastelands controlled by ideologues many miles and dollars away from the hell holes they've sponsored.
Fact: Pakistan sponsored, supported and in most ways created the Taliban.
Fact: When the Taliban went to war with America, Pakistan took in the survivors and protected them.
Fact: the Taliban, being the ideologues they are, now see Pakistan itself as corrupt and are driving on two fronts from the territories gifted to them by Pakistan: not only attempting to drive westward into their old stomping grounds but east and south as well.
The NWFP no longer belongs to Pakistan, and no amount of posturing changes that fact. To rattle sabers at NATO and the US as though you still have some sort of bargaining position is laughable. You should be praying the West's forces get on with it as soon as possible to save your own asses.

As for our progress in Afghanistan Projects in Bamyan Province


You'll notice we have schools for both boys and girls, a fully functioning hospital, sewerage schemes, wind powered wells, farm assistance programmes to help them grow more profitable crops than opium etc etc etc.
You'll also notice that the Governor of the province is a woman, elected 2005.
Your Talibunnies get back in charge of these people over our dead bodies. Get with the programme AgM, the old allegiances are gone.

S-2

"...its not like the US cares for the Pakistani economy anyway if it is contemplating unilateral incursions."

You may be right though last I recall we are your biggest trading partner with the vast majority of your produced goods heading in our direction. That we're contemplating "unilateral" incursions is a stark commentary on Pakistan's continuing failure to address it's sovereign weakness.

It's been a grossly lop-sided relationship. Too much aid and goodwill from us, too much cynical lip-service and deceit from you. It's, after all, not like Pakistan cares for our interests anyway if doing nothing while maintaining an extended hand constitutes your notions of "support".

Aid to Pakistan for ages. AGES. What's it wrought? A terminal basket-case that's a king-sized headache for the rest of mankind. There's little point trying to win "hearts and minds". Our interests really aren't remotely aligned afterall.

__________________
"This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

Agnostic Muslim

Its a conditional if statement S-2, and the condition is an important part of the point I was making, in response to Ray's comment - you are off on a bit of a tangent to what I was saying.

Write to your congressman/senator if you don't like the aid, and do it soon, last I heard they are introducing another aid bill.

Agnostic Muslim

Spare me the histrionics - the only ones making threats on this board are some from the West, and the only one chest thumping the West's apparent apathy at civilian casualties is you.

The NWFP is not FATA or PATA, and no amount of half baked analysis of 'separatist movements' changes that fact.

Is there a dysfunctional government? Yes, and as I argued with Ray, it will take time for the coalition government to form a consensus over what needs to be done to combat extremism.

We did not create the Taliban, and I made my arguments related to that on another thread, whether you read them or not I do not care, but I am done repeating them.

As for development in Afghanistan, let me know when NATO manages to get a lid on the illegal drugs and weapons trade funding the Taliban, and Afghanistan isn't the world's biggest narco-state - till then, no amount of "soporific monologues" on development change the reality of how much more can be done by NATO in the territory under its control.

But good to hear that development is being undertaken, and more troops might be sent - not all hope is lost yet.

The 'Greater Pakistan' argument was one you made, and I pointed out to you which side historically wanted a "greater whatever", that the Afghans were unsuccessful at the effort does not take away from the fact that they tried, and that Karzai is still shooting his trap about it means that they still haven't given up hope.

My disagreement is not over whether the Taliban should be in charge, it is over the policies being adopted in addressing the threat. I repeat, Pakistan's problems are not the West's to resolve nor can the West resolve them - NATO's actions in FATA (if they come to pass) will only exacerbate them, and therefore, in the long run only destabilize the region further.

S-2

"Write to your congressman/senator if you don't like the aid, and do it soon, last I heard they are introducing another aid bill."

Funny given your thoughts about the British social aid package. Nothing but greedy hands and deep pockets that'll never see the people. Pakistan's path seems chosen after many years. Pakistan is looking a lot like a radical islamic state with nuclear weapons and a bad attitude.

No faith in any social aid after so many decades and your own condemnation. I remain certain that the taliban look to Pakistan as sanctuary. They know that they're not safe in Afghanistan and that death is never far.

Not so in Pakistan. Always good to return home.

Now, Pakistan's willingness to tolerate our enemies says damn near all that needs saying.

Parihaka

I'm not chest thumping at all, merely clearly and analytically pointing out that the west has lost interest in 'American atrocities' stories. Which means that the LIBERAL west has lost interest. Which means that the previous brakes to more determined actions by the US has gone. Even their great white (or if you'll forgive me, black) hope keeps reiterating he will put American boots on Pakistani soil regardless of what the Pakistani government says.
And nothing changes the fact that the innermost intricacies of Pakistani tribal allegiances and political leanings mean no more to the coalition forces amassing on your western border than does my great grandmothers whakapapa.They haven't got it for the simple reason that company sized Taliban units are attacking coalition forces and then returning to Pakistan. Time is up. Pakistan and all her citizens are going to have to decide about all that rhetoric of not a single US boot on Pakistan soil because, well, I rather suspect it's going to happen.

Sure. And you be sure to let me know when Pakistan stops channeling it and selling it on the open market. You are after all the purchasers and financiers of said opium trade.
Let me know when you stop channeling the guns and explosives into Afghanistan.
Let me know when you've arrested those supplying the Talibunnies with those guns and explosives.
Let me know when you've arrested all the 'Pakistanis' who are currently conducting cross border raids into Afghanistan to attack NATO et al troops and make reconstruction impossible.
Let me know when you've arrested and put on trial all those responsible for proliferating WMD technology.
Let me know when you've arrested those who've been running terrorist training schools for the British bombers.
Let me know when you've arrested the leaders and followers of the Taliban and AQ currently harbored within Pakistan:
until then save the sarcasm for someone who cares.
The difference is the 'Mayor of Kabul' has not the slightest ability to take Pakistan soil or threaten Pakistan in any way: Pakistan has on the other hand been doing that to Afghanistan since the Soviet invasion. Sorry, 'me victim, him bad guy' doesn't wash. You've had thirty years of doing whatever the **** you like.
Can't be any more destabilised than it is already.
Can't do any less to interfere with Pakistans handling of the problem than we are already.
The NWFP, not just FATA are now effectively out of Pakistan's control. You're about to lose Peshawar.
NATO thus far hasn't crossed the border but has in fact left the problem to Pakistan, as Pakistan has demanded.
End result is that the Taliban can now mount conventional offensives across the border with no hindrance from the PA, and some indicators of assistance from the P.A.
Clean cold analysis from an outside observer: times up. Pick your side and play it for all it's worth.