The president's speech - Page 2

leib10 · 10-08-2005, 18:05 PM

Since when does Dolchstoßlegende have to do with Iraq?

smilingassassin · 10-09-2005, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombra

I wonder when you will build your own "dolchstoßlegende" Like :"we would have won if stayed longer in Iraq or if the "lefties" didn´t force us to leave earlier..." Future will tell

How about " we have through out action created a new terrorist haven in Iraq"?

That one has such a nice ring to it for lefties....

Thats like saying the schoolyard bully's pissed we boped him in the nose for a change....

Garry · 10-09-2005, 14:39 PM

Clearly Iraqi war created more terrorists than it killed......
- trying to kill all of them a soft way is just like trying to drink out all the water from the ocean
- there are two ways to stabilize Iraq - appoint VERY brutal local power and forget about democracy.... or else have US soliders being killed for a decade and your resoures tied up to it.

I guess US needs some more movies like SQUAD or recent Russian 9th Rota instead of We were Soldiers. By the way I strongly advise you to watch 9th Rota when it goes in Elglish. It is the best movie I have seen about the war for many years! Strongly deters kids from dreaming becoming war heros....
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/...marecord.shtml

Confed999 · 10-09-2005, 14:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry

Clearly Iraqi war created more terrorists than it killed......

Nah, the people willing to blow up bus loads of kids are the same people, before, durring, or after a war. They'll use any excuse. Before the invasion of Iraq, their excuse was that we left Saddam in power.

**Shek** · 10-09-2005, 14:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry

Clearly Iraqi war created more terrorists than it killed......
- trying to kill all of them a soft way is just like trying to drink out all the water from the ocean
- there are two ways to stabilize Iraq - appoint VERY brutal local power and forget about democracy.... or else have US soliders being killed for a decade and your resoures tied up to it.

I guess US needs some more movies like SQUAD or recent Russian 9th Rota instead of We were Soldiers. By the way I strongly advise you to watch 9th Rota when it goes in Elglish. It is the best movie I have seen about the war for many years! Strongly deters kids from dreaming becoming war heros....
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/...marecord.shtml

Garry,
The Iraqi Security Forces are already starting to manhandle the terrorists and insurgents to a degree. In another two years, the ISF will be over 90% trained and able to prosecute the fight against the remaining death squads in Iraq.

Confed999 · 10-09-2005, 14:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombra

Sorry, I am not the one defending a clueless president who starts a senseless war in the name of freedom or a mandate of heaven, for oil, no existing WMDs,

Yeah, it's senseless to remove a tyrant from power.

dalem · 10-09-2005, 15:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry

Clearly Iraqi war created more terrorists than it killed......

Killing terrorists is not what the Iraq War is for. It's a nice side benefit though. So you have just constructed another strawman argument.

Quote:

- trying to kill all of them a soft way is just like trying to drink out all the water from the ocean

In a soft way? Like suffocating them in teddy bears?

Quote:

- there are two ways to stabilize Iraq - appoint VERY brutal local power and forget about democracy.... or else have US soliders being killed for a decade and your resoures tied up to it.

True. So you admit you support President Bush's choice, i.e. your second option? Congratulations and welcome on board!

Quote:

I guess US needs some more movies like SQUAD or recent Russian 9th Rota instead of We were Soldiers. By the way I strongly advise you to watch 9th Rota when it goes in Elglish. It is the best movie I have seen about the war for many years! Strongly deters kids from dreaming becoming war heros....
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/...marecord.shtml

Yeah, we wouldn't want to raise anyone with the desire to be a hero, now would we? Congratulations Garry old bean, you've just put a spotlight on one of the major problems of European culture.

-dale

Leader · 10-09-2005, 17:13 PM

"Clearly Iraqi war created more terrorists than it killed...... "

I must have missed when the US military gave out the number of ****ers we've killed so far.

"- trying to kill all of them a soft way is just like trying to drink out all the water from the ocean"

LOL sounds like an argument for the Sniper option.

**Shek** · 10-09-2005, 20:28 PM

This is one of the better op-eds that I've seen in a while.

Quote:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...mment-opinions

Peace is not the answer

Calls to end Iraq's bloodshed are hardly noble when those who would triumph slaughter teachers as children weep.

By William Shawcross, William Shawcross' book, "Allies: Why the West had to Remove Saddam," has just been updated and republished in paperback by PublicAffairs Press.

IT SEEMS UNLIKELY that many of the so-called peace marchers who trooped through Washington and London two weekends back listened on Thursday — at least not with an open mind or sympathy — to George Bush's cogent explanation of why coalition troops are fighting and dying in Iraq.

You did not see in those demonstrations, after all, many banners reading, "Support Iraq's New Constitution," "No to Jihad" or "Stop Suicide Bombers." The crimes committed daily against the Iraqi people by other Arabs who wish to re-enslave them seem to be of little interest to Michael Moore, Jane Fonda and their followers. Rage against the daily assaults on children, women, anyone, by Islamo-fascists and ordinary national fascists is not fashionable. Only alleged American crimes are cool to decry.

It's hard to think of a more graphic illustration of the horror the U.S.-led coalition is fighting in Iraq than the mass murder on Sept. 26, in which terrorists disguised as policemen (a New York Times headline called these butchers "fighters") burst into a primary school in Iskandaria, south of Baghdad, seized five teachers (all Shiites) and shot them dead. Children stood weeping through this atrocity.

Why do crimes like this make so little impression on those Americans and Europeans who want the coalition to abandon Iraq? The demonstrators think of themselves as moral, but it is hard to think of any policy more amoral than abandoning Iraq to such an enemy.

Iraqis are dismayed by the mistakes made by the coalition. They don't like the continued presence of foreign troops. But they like the prospect of being abandoned prematurely to the terrorists even less.

One of the most publicized new icons of the U.S. peace movement, grieving mother Cindy Sheehan, has attracted attention in the vibrant new media that have grown in Iraq since the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. All the Iraqis I know totally disagree with her public declarations that her son died for nothing. Those fighting the coalition approve and exploit her words.

"Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia," as the Islamo-fascists in Iraq call themselves, understands Western doubt and self-criticism. Its members are trying to create an impression of a country submerged in bloody chaos. They want to convince a world where understanding comes only from brief television images that Iraq has gone to hell. That is a lie.

Iraq was always complex — it is now vibrantly so. Despite the terrorist campaign to kill it, the country has become a school for free expression and for government elected by the people. The dread silence of half a century has given way to millions of opinions — as in the U.S., or any society that sees itself as free.

Sunni negotiators have refused to accept the draft constitution. That is certainly a setback. Now Sunnis' grievances — many of which are valid — need to be addressed peacefully. Fortunately, political discussion never stops. Three hundred conferences on the constitution have been held throughout the country, allowing 50,000 people to express their views. The 150 new, uncensored newspapers, the scores of radio stations and half a dozen TV channels that have been set up are all talking about this and other matters of political progress.

The constitution may not be perfect. But, as the commentator Amir Taheri points out: "This is still the most democratic constitution offered to any Muslim nation so far."

That is thanks to the sacrifice of Casey Sheehan and others. It should be a source of pride in the United States. Thanks to the coalition Iraqis have more confidence in their future than we do. Iraqi refugees are not fleeing abroad in vast numbers, as happened during previous crises. The Iraqi dinar has strengthened, not weakened, against the currencies of other oil-producing nations. The mistakes that have been made in Iraq since its liberation do not alter the fact that the overthrow of Hussein has given Iraqis a chance they never had before and has shaken the ramshackle, corrupt and dictatorial foundations of the Middle East.

That, of course, is why there is such bloody resistance. U.S. soldiers are being killed not by romantic nationalist insurgents (as some liberal journalists and marchers like to pretend) but by an unholy grouping of Saddamite gangsters furious at losing power, Syrian and Iranian agents intent on creating mayhem and then theocracy, and Islamo-fascists who want to enslave the world and whose local Pol Pot, Abu Musab Zarqawi, boasts of seeking to murder as many of Iraq's majority Shiite population as he can.

Zarqawi has also declared that if he is victorious, he will use Iraq as a base to drag down other regional governments and to mount attacks on the United States. Osama bin Laden has said that "the Third World War is raging in Iraq. The whole world is watching this war." All of which makes the antiwar opposition in the U.S. and Europe remarkably shortsighted and self-indulgent. We in the West have a vital stake in delivering on our promises and ensuring that terrorism does not move on to other victims, with even greater bloodlust.

The sacrifice of U.S. soldiers, of their coalition allies and of Iraqis is horrifically painful. But if we can stay long enough to enable the Iraqis to lay the firm foundation of civil society, their deaths will not be in vain. We should leave when the elected Iraqi government asks us to do so.

It is the promise of freedom that the fascists who murdered the Iraqi teachers last month want to destroy. It is astonishing and discouraging that those who think they were taking the high ground in marching though Washington do not understand this.

smilingassassin · 10-10-2005, 07:24 AM

Quagmire? Doesn't seem to be effecting the new dinar....

Iraqi Dinar

The New Iraqi Dinar
Starting October 15th 2003 a new Iraqi currency known as the ‘new Iraqi dinar’ began to replace the ‘old Iraqi dinar’, and the currency used in the North of Iraq, the ‘swiss Iraqi dinar’. The new Iraqi dinar created a single unified currency that is used throughout all of Iraq. Since the production of the new Iraq dinar, the international demand for the new Iraqi dinar has continued to rise.

Why buy Iraqi Dinar?
Iraq’s position as the second largest oil reserve holder in the world, with 95 percent of Iraq’s revenue coming from exported oil. Even in the midst of chaos, scandals and physical violence, the Iraqi dinar has managed to appreciate by 25 percent in value. The “all-time low” of the Iraqi dinar appeals to sophisticated investors. Many Investors are aware that they are buying the Iraqi dinar at a postwar level; therefore, it has captivated a broader spectrum. Anyone can afford buying the dinars, regardless if they are big or small investors.

Iraqi Dinar security features
Further encouraging the Iraqi dinar demand are the note’s security features: watermarks, metallic inks, safety strip, color changing symbol, raised lettering and writing that is only visible in ultra violet light. When there is confidence in any currency, stability and growth are the next to follow.

leftwingperson# · 10-10-2005, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombra

@ Leader

Sorry, I am not the one defending a clueless president who starts a senseless war in the name of freedom or a mandate of heaven, for oil, no existing WMDs,
and funny even if before the Iraq had no real connections to AQ now it s quite possible it has or is it only the name the people in Iraq are drawn to?

Already you are accusing the press to work for the enemy etc. Everybody who is not with me in this madness is against freedom , democracy blah blah..

You say you are winning. Well fine. In the beginning you had a more or less insignificant group of terrorists: AQ. They had a lucky day for them being able to hit the US in such a spectucalar way.

Suddenly AQ is everywhere . You are fighting how many people in Iraq 30.000? 5000? 1000? #

Hadn´t you won already a few years ago?

I wonder when you will build your own "dolchstoßlegende" Like :"we would have won if stayed longer in Iraq or if the "lefties" didn´t force us to leave earlier..." Future will tell

nicely said

Garry · 10-10-2005, 13:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalem

Killing terrorists is not what the Iraq War is for. It's a nice side benefit though. So you have just constructed another strawman argument.

In a soft way? Like suffocating them in teddy bears?

True. So you admit you support President Bush's choice, i.e. your second option? Congratulations and welcome on board!

Yeah, we wouldn't want to raise anyone with the desire to be a hero, now would we? Congratulations Garry old bean, you've just put a spotlight on one of the major problems of European culture.

-dale

Fortunatelly I am not a decision maker. In my view first option is far more realistic - to stop chaos first no mater how many civil lives it would take.... you will save more lives that would be lost in years of chaos. After you too full control the situation and you may gradually work towards inreasing living standards of people there.... later gradually transfer them some authority..... first local.... then central and only finally regional (betwen local and central).

The second option is VERY risky.... the price is not clear.... how many years? how many lifes?.... how many elections?..... Plus add t hat your leader sold different arguments for the war in the begining and your people may get disappointed about that => it is very possible that US feels tired of that messian goal and pulls out in few years. Then it would be very very bad for Iraqies as chaous rages first then it would turn to Afganistan post Soviet exit...... and forces which finally stop the chaos and take control are most probably would be far from being concerned about increasign living standards.....

My belief is that the way to democracy is non-linear => controlled dictatorshi is the fastest and safest way to bring a nation to higher standard of living..... + demorcracy

There was one very famous fiction book by Strugatskiy broths - The Bug in Ant Heap. It was about a future when human being is very civilized and kind but they meet uncivilized nations on other planets. They want to bring them up to their level but this turns to be tought task...... so they start hiddenly influence those undervelopped nations with special agents who work inside with a plan turning history of those nations to the shortest root to democracy, high living stadndard and all the rest bla bla bla which is called now civilization. Those agents were called Progressors and their mission was to accelerate progress.

Isaac Asimov's foundation stories also funny reading for those who dream changing the history and bring up foreign nations to higher level......

ps. Leader.... the flows are not important.... look what happened with the stock... the water getting in faster than you bucket it out..... outcome? More terrorists in the world.

Bluesman · 10-10-2005, 13:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leftwingperson#

nicely said

If you read hysterical gibberish and get anything out of it, then I suppose it was nicely said.

If you don't, then it was crap from beginning to end.

By the way: who the hell are YOU? How 'bout going over to the 'Intro' forum and telling us a little bit about yourself, instead of just butting into the conversation?

Garry · 10-10-2005, 13:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shek

Garry,
The Iraqi Security Forces are already starting to manhandle the terrorists and insurgents to a degree. In another two years, the ISF will be over 90% trained and able to prosecute the fight against the remaining death squads in Iraq.

Shek, this is good. But you also need some harismatic leader to lead them..... without that they will fall apart...... this leader now is needed more than constitution. Why? because law of constitution traditionally meant nothing for Iraqis...... while law of a leader meant much. You need a Local War Leader.

in Afghanistan Russia has brought those forces to a level when they had their own aviation, tanks, artillery, millitary academies..... it all fell down in just 2 years once SU left the country. Their leader was just a soviet made beureacrat from communist party.... he knew how to play intrigues not how to fight for his regime.

dalem · 10-10-2005, 13:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry

Fortunatelly I am not a decision maker. In my view first option is far more realistic - to stop chaos first no mater how many civil lives it would take.... you will save more lives that would be lost in years of chaos. After you too full control the situation and you may gradually work towards inreasing living standards of people there.... later gradually transfer them some authority..... first local.... then central and only finally regional (betwen local and central).

So you're suggesting that acting as a true colonial power is the right way to go?

Quote:

The second option is VERY risky.... the price is not clear.... how many years? how many lifes?.... how many elections?..... Plus add t hat your leader sold different arguments for the war in the begining and your people may get disappointed about that => it is very possible that US feels tired of that messian goal and pulls out in few years. Then it would be very very bad for Iraqies as chaous rages first then it would turn to Afganistan post Soviet exit...... and forces which finally stop the chaos and take control are most probably would be far from being concerned about increasign living standards.....

Of course it's risky. Nothing wrong with risk if the goal is worth it. And it would be a helluva lot less risky if folks on the left weren't busy spewing lies and misinformation. Hate America all day long, but why screw the Iraqis in the meantime? Why not get out the people to march in favor of the Iraqi Constitution?

Quote:

My belief is that the way to democracy is non-linear => controlled dictatorshi is the fastest and safest way to bring a nation to higher standard of living..... + demorcracy

You are arguing for a classic realpolitik answer - and that's what got us to the point of imbalance anyway. Playing "he's a bastard, but he's OUR bastard" is a Very Bad Thing in the long run. We are reaping that whirlwind every day now, so why continue the process?

-dale

10-08-2005, 18:05 PM	#16 (permalink)
leib10 HKHolic *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 02-17-05 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,256 Country:	Since when does Dolchstoßlegende have to do with Iraq? __________________ "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

10-09-2005, 17:13 PM	#23 (permalink)
Leader Ubi dubium ibi libertas *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-04-03 Location: Boston, MA, USPRA Posts: 5,124	"Clearly Iraqi war created more terrorists than it killed...... " I must have missed when the US military gave out the number of ****ers we've killed so far. "- trying to kill all of them a soft way is just like trying to drink out all the water from the ocean" LOL sounds like an argument for the Sniper option. __________________ "Above all, we must realize that no arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women. It is a weapon our adversaries in today's world do not have." "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" NEVER FORGET

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10-09-2005, 14:39 PM	#18 (permalink)
Garry *Defense Professional* Join Date: 06-18-04 Posts: 1,643	Clearly Iraqi war created more terrorists than it killed...... - trying to kill all of them a soft way is just like trying to drink out all the water from the ocean - there are two ways to stabilize Iraq - appoint VERY brutal local power and forget about democracy.... or else have US soliders being killed for a decade and your resoures tied up to it. I guess US needs some more movies like SQUAD or recent Russian 9th Rota instead of We were Soldiers. By the way I strongly advise you to watch 9th Rota when it goes in Elglish. It is the best movie I have seen about the war for many years! Strongly deters kids from dreaming becoming war heros.... http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/10/...marecord.shtml

10-10-2005, 07:24 AM	#25 (permalink)
smilingassassin *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-12-03 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 2,751 Country:	Quagmire? Doesn't seem to be effecting the new dinar.... Iraqi Dinar The New Iraqi Dinar Starting October 15th 2003 a new Iraqi currency known as the ‘new Iraqi dinar’ began to replace the ‘old Iraqi dinar’, and the currency used in the North of Iraq, the ‘swiss Iraqi dinar’. The new Iraqi dinar created a single unified currency that is used throughout all of Iraq. Since the production of the new Iraq dinar, the international demand for the new Iraqi dinar has continued to rise. Why buy Iraqi Dinar? Iraq’s position as the second largest oil reserve holder in the world, with 95 percent of Iraq’s revenue coming from exported oil. Even in the midst of chaos, scandals and physical violence, the Iraqi dinar has managed to appreciate by 25 percent in value. The “all-time low” of the Iraqi dinar appeals to sophisticated investors. Many Investors are aware that they are buying the Iraqi dinar at a postwar level; therefore, it has captivated a broader spectrum. Anyone can afford buying the dinars, regardless if they are big or small investors. Iraqi Dinar security features Further encouraging the Iraqi dinar demand are the note’s security features: watermarks, metallic inks, safety strip, color changing symbol, raised lettering and writing that is only visible in ultra violet light. When there is confidence in any currency, stability and growth are the next to follow.

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