Anon

"It could have been M21's arguing with me showing the SAME STATISTIC'S that I had just proven incorrect with fifth grade math, and everyone still believes his statistics because he was a sniper. Be real here, he got those from the Wisconsin Gun Owners website."

Hmmm, never knew it was so easy to rattle a cop.

But to the facts: on the Wisconson gunowners site the ACTUAL REPORTS that those statistics are derived from are documented and linked, which of course i stated in the post at the time.

And let me explain why your '5th grade math' falls flat on it's face.

The DoJ/NIJ study cited a low estimate of 1.5 million annual DGUs in 1997.

In 1994 The NCVS conducted a similar survey based only upon DGUs that were actually reported the to police, and from that obviously restricted sampling, the NCVS report still concluded there were 105,000 DGUs in 1994(which is still anything but a small number).

If we compare these two figures, we are presented with the obvious answer that only about 8% of all DGUs are actually reported to the police.

This means that there is actually FAR more crime going on than is reported, which should not come as a shock, or even a mild surprise, to anyone.

That is what you're not allowing for...that there is a vast amount of crime that goes unreported in the US for a variety of reasons. One of those reasons is because citizens that just stuck a gun in a criminals face, causing him to flee, don't exactly feel like being grilled by the police for their efforts...lest they end up being the one in cuffs when the smoke clears.
There was a report out of Arizona today of EXACTLY that happening to a Guardsmen that held 10 illegals that attempted to rush him at gunpoint until police arrived. He was arrested for his troubles, and of course, the illegals were all released without charge.

THAT'S one of the biggest reasons crimes go unreported. We the people are sick of cops showing up and breaking our balls because we're victoms. It's easier to just not report it after you've already dealt with the problem yourself. I've done the same thing myself plenty of times over the years.

Seriously, what % of assaults do you think actually get reported? 30%, maybe? I've been in dozens of fights, but the cops were never there to record any of them. Each was two counts of assualt(me and the guy i was fighting), but not a one of them shows up in the offical crime statistics.

Rape is also a notoriously under-reported crime, and until a body shows up, many murders just get filed as missing persons reports, sometimes for many years.

And CERTAINLY there is far more DUI and Drug crimes going on that cops can ever possibly hope to account for. I bet cops don't catch even 5% of those commiting drug crimes, and probably less than 10% of those commiting DUIs.

What we DO know for sure is that citizens legally shoot TWICE as many criminals per year as police do, 1,527 to 606(link in previous postings).
And according to a Newsweek report, "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The ‘error rate’ for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."
(on the wisconson site, which has links to the actual reports).

So like i said before, if we should be taking ANYONES guns, it's cops.

highsea

That is utter rubbish. It's much easier to get a gun without going through a licensed dealer. I can pick up any want ads from almost any city in America, and go buy a gun from a private party with no fuss whatsoever. I can go to any major city and buy one on the street. I could go across the street where I live in Seattle and buy one within an hour. In both cases, I will probably pay considerably less than I would pay from a licensed dealer.

If I go to the store, I would have background check (assuming I did not have a CCW permit) and a 3 day wait, and have to fill out the ATF paperwork. Chances are I will pay more money for the weapon, plus an 8% sales tax to boot, it will take longer, and there will be a paper trail that the Gov't can trace if people like you get their way and decide that citizens shouldn't be allowed to own guns.

If you really are a cop, you should know that it's a lot easier to get a gun on the street than buy one from a dealer.

__________________
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highsea

Cops scare me. Here's a true story. I live on my boat. About 4 years ago, I was asleep in the bunk when I was woken by someone boarding my boat at about 3 in the morning. I heard their footsteps on the deck, and could feel the boat rocking. I grabbed my .44, and started to move aft to investigate, when a flashlight lit up the center salon and started searching around the inside of the boat. I moved over to the side to stay out of the light, and quietly went aft to the companionway. Keeping my gun down, I slid open the hatch and looked out. It was the Seattle cops, guns drawn. Since I didn't want a bunch of hassles, being forced to prove my identity, that it was my boat they were on, etc., I just ducked back inside and slid the hatch back closed. They never even knew I was on board or that I was prepared to defend my home.

I found out the next day they were looking for a car thief who had escaped in the river by my marina.

This is the thing- they did not knock or identify themselves before boarding my boat. I had no idea who was prowling around on my deck. What would they have done had they seen me through the skylight, moving around inside my boat with a gun in my hand? Would they have panicked? I didn't know who it was, all I knew is there were prowlers on my boat in the middle of the night. If they had opened fire on me, I definitely would have returned their fire. Very scary situation.

Had they been a little more observant, they would have noticed my boat is a liveaboard- boarding steps on the dock and an open gate on deck. A pressure water line from the dock to the boat for fresh water. Power, phone and tv cables connected to the boat, a BBQ on the dock with deck chairs next to it. Heat coming from the diesel heater stovepipe.

Being cops, they felt that they were okay just boarding any boat they felt like. After they moved down the dock, I called the other liveaboards in the marina and warned them that there were some dumb cops prowling the marina and not to shoot them.

dalem

And how many of us either know someone who has scared off a criminal with the simple racking of the slide of a pump shotgun from the front porch, or done it themselves? I can think of two occasions myself, neither one in particularly awful neighborhoods.

-dale

Tinkertoys

You say you do not want the police outgunned, but want them unarmed? That makes NO sense. I sent the DOJ links, care to read everyone of them, I will be proven correct.

-Tink

Anon

I would prefer if the police were outgunned as a matter of fact.

We wouldn't have WACOs and Ruby Ridges or MOVEs if they were.

If the cops run into a situation where their sidearms cannot handle it, that's what the National Guard exists for. Sherrifs also have the right to deputive private citizens who have access to much better weaponry, on the spot(such as was the case in the Charles Whitman episode).

The militarization of police forces under former LA C.O.P. Gates and AG Janet Reno is one of the BIGGEST mistakes this country has seen in the modern era IMO.
It's hard to trust a bunch of para-militaries running around in black ninja suits toting submachineguns, or to even justify their existance IMO.

Tinkertoys

That was the FBI, not local cops. They need automatic weapons and the like. Remember the North Hollywood Shootout? The cops were outgunned, God forbid, if the s******* knew how to use their weapons correctly, dozens could have died.

-Tink

Anon

MOVE was the regular Philly PD. It was a Pa State trooper chopper that dropped the incindiary bomb on that house.

WRT the Hollywood bank robbers, one of those robbers was an ex-Army Ranger.

The cops would've been better off that day with .30-06 scoped, pump action rifles than M-16s.

A .223 wouldn't punch through the vests the bankrobbers were wearing. With the exception of the ceramic trauma inserts, a .30-06 would've gone right through.

Of course the cops would have been MUCH better off if they were better trained with their issued sidearms. A skimask won't stop a 9mm hollowpoint, but none of the cops there were of a sufficient skill level to execute a head shot(which, btw, is not entirely their fault).

I just don't trust gov't, especially big city democrat run government. I don't like the disdain they show for the citizenry, and i don't trust their motivations.

The last thing i want is a clown like W.Wilson Goode or Marion Berry(or an idiot like Daryl F. Gates) with access to well armed, well trained, government paid hit squads. Used improperly, that's exactly what a Big City SWAT team is.

The potential for misuse is too great, and unlike common American Citizens, i DO NOT trust big city governments.

I'd frankly rather take my chances with criminals.

Given the fact that the Supreme Court of the US has held time and again that the police have NO obligation to protect individual citizens, i feel my opinion on the matter is not just justified, but completely rational as well.

TopHatter

Darn right. I bought my little cap gun off a friend. Was the government involved at any level? No, not at all. Were we within the law as regards our transaction? 100% legal.

__________________
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barrowaj

I've never cited statistics from a think tank, and don't plan on doing so in the future.

What do you think that this proves? I'm not trying to trick you or anything, I just want to see where you are coming from.

Why go to management when I can confront the source directly? My point is that in a real life environment you would have already invalidated your credibility by using personal insults. The tactic is only effective because as with others here, you are concerned about your dogmatic views rather than a rational discussion.

If you actually look at the statistics, you can see that the murder rate in DC was already on the rise before the handgun ban went in to place in July 1976. This would suggest an underlying cause in the increasing murder rate other than a ban on handguns. In fact, just between 1960 and 1975, the murder rate increased 290%. It would be absurd to suggest that a continuing increase in crime is because of the banning of handguns in 1976.

Furthermore, to analyze the effectiveness of the ban on handguns, we would have to compensate for the underlying long term trend in the murder rate. To do so, we can look at the short term statistics for what happened to the murder rate in the years directly following the handgun ban. In fact, beginning in 1976 the murder rate dropped by 20% and stayed stable at that lower level for several years afterward. In conclusion, it is far more plausable that the hangun ban was responsible for a modest decrease in the murder rate, rather than a long term trend that was underway well before the ban was put in to place.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/dccrime.htm

Anon

"If you actually look at the statistics, you can see that the murder rate in DC was already on the rise before the handgun ban went in to place in July 1976."

Wrong.

The murder rate in DC declined over the five year period before the ban went into effect. Dropping from 37 homocides per 100,000 in 1971, to 27 homocides per 100,000 in 1976(the year the ban was implemented).

In the ensuing 29 years since the ban took place, only 4x has the number of murders been lower(and in three of those instances only slightly lower) than the pre ban 1976 level. (Check your own link for confirmation).

At it's peak, in 1992, the DC murder rate was 300% higher than the pre ban level, at 80 homocides per 100,000. Currently, Washington DC is the per capita murder capital of the US(again), with a rate of 44 homocides per 100,000, 64% higher than the pre-ban level.

In that same timespan, the overall murder rate in the US has dropped 40%.

Those are the FACTS.

I can also point to the UK, where in the Wake of the 1997 Gun ban their gun crime rate rose by 40% in the subsequent two years, according to the BBC.

(all my links are already in place in previous posts).

Tinkertoys

Once again, since you did not listen, this has been attributed by the FBI to the cutting of the DC PD, and the explosion of gang violence, not guns.

-Tink

Tinkertoys

Only eight percent of DGU's are reported to police? One, it is more than that, and two, we have to do investigations, so we find out anyways.

-Tink

Tinkertoys

Since you are acting like a moron, let me tell you this: We take it as our duty to protect individuals, just as firemen would even if the the Supreme Court said they did not have to. Even suggesting that we would not, makes you extremely shallow and narrowminded, also somewhat stupid.
Further proving that you know NOTHING about police ethics.
-Tink

Tinkertoys

You are an idiot, when we are not told about crimes, we cannot design an effective strategy to combat it, who stupid could you be to not know this?

-Tink