Tinkertoys

You have to add the gun crimes to the other types to get that stat, because gun crimes are violent. In 1999, there were 154 cases of justifiable homicide by private citizens.

-Tink

Anon

And according to the US Justice Department in 2001 there were 1.5 million legal uses of firearms by citizens to stop a crime.

That pretty much slam dunks the 'more guns = more crime' debate.

Inded Criminologist Gary Kleck of the University of Florida titled his definitive study on the topic, "More guns = less crime".

Tinkertoys

I hate to say it M21, but you are plain wrong. This is the same Gary Kleck publicized gun training in Orlando and Kansas City would prevent rape and robbery, however, on careful examination, this was revealed to be false. When Morton Grove, IL, banned handguns, burglary dropped twofold. Kleck, in regards to burglary, also used statistics where a gun was in the home, but not the owner, for HALF of his statistics. In 1999, there were 6,000,000, burglaries, and in only 1,300,000 cases was the owner home. Since only 41 percent of households owned firearms, this would mean that burglary victims used their guns in self-defense over 100 percent of the time, which is bulls*it. A more reasonable estimate of self defense gun use comes from a retrospective analysis of the Atlanta PD during a four month period, there were 198 cases of unwanted entry when someone was at home (Kellerman, 1995), In only three cases (less than 2 percent) did a victim use a firearm in self defense. If this were applied nationwide for the year the survey covers, it would suggest approximately 20,000 cases of gun use against burglary. Kleck did a survey, claiming that 64 percent of those who used a gun in self defense reported it. But even this statistic exceeds the total number of burglary reports to police, including those wear the victim did not use a firearm. Care to feed me more bulls*it?

-Tink

Terran empire

No crook wants to deal with an armed person even if they are also packing. it's simple no crook would dare rob B&E on a street of known gun owners, why because they would not want there heads blown off.

__________________
"Finger never touches Trigger unless some one is going too need a grave digger" (Me)[

Tinkertoys

They do it all the time, because they have guns, too. I saw it happen in law enforcement, they do not give a damn who has guns, no matter what interviewer may claim inmates said.

-Tink

Tinkertoys

I think that solved the issue.

-Tink

Anon

"I hate to say it M21, but you are plain wrong."

Nope, not even close.

"This is the same Gary Kleck publicized gun training in Orlando and Kansas City would prevent rape and robbery, however, on careful examination, this was revealed to be false."

Show me the independent studies or government report that stated it was wrong.

"When Morton Grove, IL, banned handguns, burglary dropped twofold."

Since DC banned handguns in 1976, the murder rate has more than tripled. Dispute that.

"Kleck, in regards to burglary, also used statistics where a gun was in the home, but not the owner, for HALF of his statistics. In 1999, there were 6,000,000, burglaries, and in only 1,300,000 cases was the owner home. Since only 41 percent of households owned firearms, this would mean that burglary victims used their guns in self-defense over 100 percent of the time, which is bulls*it."

Burglaries? You are leaving out attempted rapes, attempted assaults, attempted roberies, attempted murder, etc, etc, etc.

"A more reasonable estimate of self defense gun use comes from a retrospective analysis of the Atlanta PD during a four month period, there were 198 cases of unwanted entry when someone was at home (Kellerman, 1995), In only three cases (less than 2 percent) did a victim use a firearm in self defense."

You are A) Assuming all cases are reported(and they're not, by a long shot), and B) that only burglaries are at issue, which is quite ridiculous.

"If this were applied nationwide for the year the survey covers, it would suggest approximately 20,000 cases of gun use against burglary."

Sorry sport, the US department of Justice did it's own study that found 1.5 million defensive uses per year, and further, you are deliberately distorting the argument by attempting to focus solely on burglaries.

Here is a link to the report:
http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt

"Kleck did a survey, claiming that 64 percent of those who used a gun in self defense reported it. But even this statistic exceeds the total number of burglary reports to police, including those wear the victim did not use a firearm. Care to feed me more bulls*it?"

Yeah sure....who said these statistics only covered burglaries? Oh- that was you.

Those statistics cover all manner of crimes, burglary is only a small slice of the pie.

highsea

Tink- I don't believe you. Post your studies. Snipe cited a Justice Dept. statistic from 2001- You talk about only burglaries from 1999. That doesn't include rapes, robberies, assaults, carjackings, etc.

You will never convince me that an armed woman is not less likely to be raped than an unarmed one. Or that anyone who is armed does not have a better chance to defend himself against a violent crime.

Ex. LEO? You sound like someone who thinks that normal citizens should not be permitted to rely on themselves for their personal safety. How many times did you respond to a gunshot victim (not gangmembers, but a citizen)? How often do the cops get there in time to prevent the crime?

I have used a firearm to defend my home. It worked. No, I didn't report it, because I don't want the cops to put me through the ringer (I live in an area where it is illegal to discharge a firearm- better to leave them guessing). I have witnessed burglaries- called the cops, 3 hours later they drove through the parking lot- didn't even stop. If you get burglarized in Seattle, they mail you a form to fill out. You won't even get a courtesy visit.

Cops are not interested in property crimes. Anyone who lives a any major city in the US better be prepared to defend his home himself, because the cops will not be there. At best, they will come by and investigate the aftermath, and 9 out of 10 times they will treat the victim as the criminal.

Apologies to VVV, but this is my experience.

__________________
My baby called me up. She said- Why don't you ever take me out? Pick me up in your brand new car....You shake the short change from the old fruit jar...

Anon

"You will never convince me that an armed woman is not less likely to be raped than an unarmed one. Or that [/i]anyone[/i] who is armed does not have a better chance to defend himself against a violent crime."

In a FBI study in the 90s it was found that 99% of all unarmed female rape victoms were succesfully raped.
In the same study it was found that 98% of armed females were not succesfully raped.(Note armed may mean a knife, bat, or gun).

I'll see if i can find a link.

PS: The DOJ study i cited earlier(and just linked to) was in 1997, not 2001. My appologies for the incorrect year citation.

Anon

This is follow up data on the DoJ study(and others, all of which are linked to on the site linked below):

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa109.html#4

Guns as a Tool against Crime

Several years ago the National Institute of Justice offered a grant to the former president of the American Sociological Association to survey the field of research on gun control. Peter Rossi began his work convinced of the need for strict national gun control. After looking at the data, however, Rossi and his University of Massachusetts colleagues James Wright and Kathleen Daly concluded that there was no convincing proof that gun control curbs crime.[4] A follow-up study by Wright and Rossi of serious felons in American prisons provided further evidence that gun control would not impede determined criminals. [5] It also indicated that civilian gun ownership does deter some crime. Three-fifths of the prisoners studied said that a criminal would not attack a potential victim who was known to be armed. Two-fifths of them had decided not to commit a crime because they thought the victim might have a gun. Criminals in states with higher civilian gun ownership rates worried the most about armed victims.

Real-world experiences validate the sociologists' findings. In 1966 the police in Orlando, Florida, responded to a rape epidemic by embarking on a highly publicized program to train 2,500 women in firearm use. The next year rape fell by 88 percent in Orlando (the only major city to experience a decrease that year); burglary fell by 25 percent. Not one of the 2,500 women actually ended up firing her weapon; the deterrent effect of the publicity sufficed. Five years later Orlando's rape rate was still 13 percent below the pre-program level, whereas the surrounding standard metropolitan area had suffered a 308 percent increase.[6] During a 1974 police strike in Albuquerque armed citizens patrolled their neighborhoods and shop owners publicly armed themselves; felonies dropped significantly.[7] In March 1982 Kennesaw, Georgia, enacted a law requiring householders to keep a gun at home; house burglaries fell from 65 per year to 26, and to 11 the following year.[8] Similar publicized training programs for gun-toting merchants sharply reduced robberies in stores in Highland Park, Michigan, and in New Orleans; a grocers organization's gun clinics produced the same result in Detroit.[9]

Gun control advocates note that only 2 burglars in 1,000 are driven off by armed homeowners. However, since a huge preponderance of burglaries take place when no one is home, the statistical citation is misleading. Several criminologists attribute the prevalence of daytime burglary to burglars' fear of confronting an armed occupant.[10] Indeed, a burglar's chance of being sent to jail is about the same as his chance of being shot by a victim if the burglar breaks into an occupied residence (1 to 2 percent in each case).[11]

Anon

All the statistics cited here are tracable to the actual studies they are based on if you follow the link below:

http://www.wisconsingunowners.org/20...trol_facts.htm

* Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2

* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense with a firearm every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America"—a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.3

* Concealed carry laws have reduced murder and crime rates in the states that have enacted them. According to a comprehensive study which reviewed crime statistics in every county in the United States from 1977 to 1992, states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their rate of murder by 8.5%, rape by 5%, aggravated assault by 7% and robbery by 3%.4

* Anti-gun journal pronounces the failure of the Brady law. One of the nation’s leading anti-gun medical publications, the Journal of the American Medical Association, found that the Brady registration law has failed to reduce murder rates. In August 2000, JAMA reported that states implementing waiting periods and background checks did "not [experience] reductions in homicide rates or overall suicide rates."5

* Twice as many children are killed playing football in school than are murdered by guns. That’s right. Despite what media coverage might seem to indicate, there are more deaths related to high school football than guns. In a recent three year period, twice as many football players died from hits to the head, heat stroke, etc. (45), as compared with students who were murdered by firearms (22) during that same time period.6
(irrelevant to the actual discussion at hand, but quite telling nonetheless IMO).

* More guns, less crime. In the decade of the 1990s, the number of guns in this country increased by roughly 40 million—even while the murder rate decreased by almost 40% percent.7 Accidental gun deaths in the home decreased by almost 40 percent as well.8

NOTE: That one paragraph utterly destroys the 'more guns more crime' argument in one fell swoop.

* CDC admits there is no evidence that gun control reduces crime. The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) has long been criticized for propagating questionable studies which gun control organizations have used in defense of their cause. But after analyzing 51 studies in 2003, the CDC concluded that the "evidence was insufficient to determine the effectiveness of any of these [firearms] laws."9

* In 2002, an ABC News poll found that almost three-fourths of the American public believe that the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution protects the rights of "individuals" to own guns.12

* Zogby pollsters found that by a more than 3 to 1 margin, Americans support punishing "criminals who use a gun in the commission of a crime" over legislation to "ban handguns."13

* A Research 2000 poll found that 85% of Americans would find it appropriate for a principal or teacher to use "a gun at school to defend the lives of students" to stop a school massacre.14

* A study claiming "guns are three times more likely to kill you than help you" is a total fraud. Even using the low figures from the Clinton Justice Department, firearms are used almost 50 times more often to save life than to take life.15 More importantly, however, the figure claiming one is three times more likely to be killed by one’s own gun is a total lie:

* Researcher Don Kates reveals that all available data now indicates that the "home gun homicide victims [in the flawed study] were killed using guns not kept in the victim's home."16

* In other words, the victims were NOT murdered with their own guns! They were killed "by intruders who brought their own guns to the victim's household."17

* Gun-free England not such a utopia after all. According to the BBC News, handgun crime in the United Kingdom rose by 40% in the two years after it passed its draconian gun ban in 1997.18 And according to a United Nations study, British citizens are more likely to become a victim of crime than are people in the United States. The 2000 report shows that the crime rate in England is higher than the crime rates of 16 other industrialized nations, including the United States.19

* Guns are used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year—or about 6,850 times a day20. This means that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.21

* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.23

* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606)25. And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The ‘error rate’ for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."26

* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission . . . without paying a fee . . . or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union—having three times received the "Safest State Award."31

Need i really continue?

Tinkertoys

That's bulls*it and you know it, M21, with the false statistics you claim to be fact, fifteen people are saved every week by EACH gun. That is royal horse crap. I'm sure that it is possible, using your own statitistics, to get a 100 plus percent success rate.
Look at New Zealand two gun murders compared with our 36,745.
-Tink

Tinkertoys

Do NOT give me **** about Orlando's dfensive gun course. I was attached to Orlando back in the day to observe their counter Narcotics efforts. While there, I saw the course, which would protect NO ONE from rape.

-Tink

Tinkertoys

You better believe we are interested in property crimes, how about you idiots vote for people who put cops on the street instead of guns in the home?
Oh, and you are nineteen times more likely to die with a gun in your home, by any cause, ACDCHG, intentionally, etc.
-Tink

highsea

Huh???

There are 200 million guns in private ownership in the US. Are you saying that sniper is claiming that there are 2.5 BILLION aborted gun crimes each week?

Who's BS'ing who, here?