Kurdish region rethinking independence - Page 3

S-2 · 12-20-2007, 14:41 PM

No expert, that's for sure. However, I'd counterpoint your article, Brigadier, with this-

JS Online: News

Somebody's waffling on the real story. I don't know where the truth lies. I'm sure that there's some backpedaling going on to achieve the appearance of congruence on this matter.

I'm also interested in this-

Turkish Leaders and Iraqi Kurds Need to Mend Fences for Stability

"Reason one: Now that the Turkish military has made its military point, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan may be better positioned to push for a diplomatic solution.

'The Turks did what they wanted to do, and we don't need any more tensions,' I was told by the prime minister of the Kurdish regional government, Nechirvan Barzani. He hopes 'after this there could be the beginning of dialogue with the Turks.'

The Turkish government may be interested. The day before the air strikes, Emre Taner, chief of Turkey's national intelligence organization, visited Erbil on behalf of Erdogan and Turkish President Abdullah Gul. His message to top Kurdish leaders: The Turkish government wants good relations with the the Kurdish regional government, and it also wants the question of Kirkuk to be solved constitutionally.

Reason two: There is new hope for progress on Kirkuk. All parties have agreed to let the United Nations Mission for Iraq devise a way to implement Article 140 within six months. Stefan De Mistura, the impressive U.N. special representative to Iraq, has won Kurds' trust; he helped organize the return home of more than one million Iraqi Kurdish refugees from the mountains of Turkey after the 1991 Gulf War.

'The ticking bomb [of Kirkuk] still ticks,' De Mistura told me in Erbil, 'but we have put a new engine into the acceleration of the process, called the United Nations, which has the expertise and can provide legitimacy to the process.' In this process, says De Mistura, 'Turkey has to be an important part.'

Indeed, the makings of Turkish-Kurdish rapprochement can already be seen in Erbil. The dusty, low-slung provincial capital is booming with construction, which is almost all done by Turkish firms using Turkish workers. Trade with and transport from Turkey is Kurdistan's lifeline."

Brigadier, money is insidious. It's corrupting influence can bend the will of nations. Trade is exploding along the Kurd-Turkish border. According to the above report Emre Taner (Turkey's #1 spy) was in Erbil/Irbil the day before the strikes. Ucar had led me to believe that direct contact between representatives of the Turkish gov't and the KRG couldn't happen. This would indicate otherwise.

There's a LOT we don't know that's going on behind the scenes.

snc128 · 12-20-2007, 17:16 PM

dear Ucar,

Quote:

In my perception, the Turkish political system can be summarised as a Preatorian Democracy. The system and the elites need, even require imagined or real threats in order to justify its continued existence. PKK is a reality for our every day lives. How an end, at least a plan to end can not be realized is a taboo in Turkey. It is safe to discuss it in public, read it on newspaper, but it is NOT safe to direct such questions to members of the ruling elite. There is an official reality, and a perceived reality which is immediately distorted by official channels in order not to create a question "Why?" in people's mind. If you are given the answer before you ask the question, you simply do not ask it anymore.

dont you think this theory is also a conspiracy theory especially when taken care to dear Big K's first post in the topic which is

Quote:

Alexander the Great asked Aristo how to dominate people that live on the lands that he conquered?
1- exile persons of prominence?
2- jail them?
3- kill them?

answer of Aristo

1- they will regroup and make a revolt against you
2- your prisons will be home of militant and will go out of control
3- next generation will grow with hatred and shake your throne...

and heres the Aristo's solution:

"saw the seeds of discord,
when they fight eachother impose yourself as arbitrator,
clog the roads leading to the agreement"...

heres the situation in Iraq!

?

Quote:

Turkey has suffered succcessive national traumas as a result of coups by successive military generals, and has been very successfully transformed into an apolitical country. Turkey has not faced this reality. The people responsible for such traumas are generally regarded as "great men".

The average Turkish citizen is ignorant of world affairs, heavily doctrinated, and educated well in material sciences and little to none in branches of social sciences. Thus, we have an extremely self-centric notion of reality, where all manner of actions by other countries are perceived as a threat to the existence of the nation, or the sovereignty or the country. For a Turk, national history -what little of it is revealed- ends with Ataturk's death in 1938. We are a nation whose past and identity has been cerefully and purposefully destroyed.

these are vey true and facts I have never wanted to tell loudly.we all know thes indeed.maybe I am a apolitized guy as well

Quote:

Successive Turkish governments have repeatedly announced that they would accept only a unitary Iraq. In saying this, nobody imagined that the unitary Iraq would contain a KRG. Turkish rulers imagined that unitary meant what it meant in Turkey.

Naturally, this binds other alternatives in foreign policy and alternative approaches. Now, we can not "openly" move in a friendly manner towards the KRG because it undermines what was said earlier. Therefore, we are forced to revert to backdoor channels with reduced effect. Even if we wanted to establish tangible links with the KRG via Baghdad government, this would create immeasurable problems in domestic politics.

that is because we are not the ones who produce new politics and/or politics but a imitator, cut producer.we have to change and think whether we do the right things or we do the things right.

Big K · 12-22-2007, 00:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S-2

.....Indeed, the makings of Turkish-Kurdish rapprochement can already be seen in Erbil. The dusty, low-slung provincial capital is booming with construction, which is almost all done by Turkish firms using Turkish workers. Trade with and transport from Turkey is Kurdistan's lifeline."[/b].....
There's a LOT we don't know that's going on behind the scenes.

this trade relations are continuing for years...for exemple i've seen a line of waiting TIR's for 400km when Turkey closed the border trade...

Turks and Kurds know that good relations are vital for their life...so...like i've mentioned countless times before...theres a lot of things that we dont know...

S-2 · 12-22-2007, 00:35 AM

Big K,

My guess is that Ucar would be slightly (or more) surprised by the direct contact between Emre Taner and Barzani.

It seemed he'd indicated that the Turkish gov't was philosophically boxed-in from direct contact with the KRG. Perhaps I simply misunderstood him.

Big K · 12-22-2007, 15:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S-2

Big K,

My guess is that Ucar would be slightly (or more) surprised by the direct contact between Emre Taner and Barzani.

It seemed he'd indicated that the Turkish gov't was philosophically boxed-in from direct contact with the KRG. Perhaps I simply misunderstood him.

hımm..i guess not...if my my memory serves me well than i can tell you that these 2 (Talabani and Barzani) were carrying Turkish Green Passports once...i mean relations were started long ago i believe...

Kansas Bear · 12-22-2007, 15:30 PM

Turkish military: Kurds in Iraq bombed

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) — Turkish warplanes bombed Kurdish rebel targets in northern Iraq on Saturday in the third confirmed cross-border offensive by Turkish forces in less than a week, a statement posted on the military's website said.
The military said the bombing lasted nearly a half-hour on Saturday afternoon, and was followed by shelling from inside Turkish borders. It did not say how deep into Iraqi territory the warplanes penetrated, or which areas were shelled.

It vowed to continue military operations on both sides of Turkish-Iraqi border "no matter how the conditions are," the statement said.

Turkish jet fighters on Dec. 16 launched the first confirmed air assault on Iraqi soil since the U.S.-led invasion, bombing bases in northern Iraq held by the separatist Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK.

The United States and Iraq both have urged Turkey to avoid a major operation in the region, fearing it could destabilize what has been the calmest area in Iraq.

Turkish forces periodically have shelled across the border, and sometimes have carried out "hot pursuits" — limited raids on the Iraqi side that sometimes last only a few hours.

In a Nov. 5 meeting with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, U.S. President George W. Bush declared the PKK a "common enemy," and promised to share intelligence on the group.

Turkish military: Kurds in Iraq bombed - USATODAY.com

12-20-2007, 14:41 PM	#31 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 2,109 Country:	Ray Reply No expert, that's for sure. However, I'd counterpoint your article, Brigadier, with this- JS Online: News Somebody's waffling on the real story. I don't know where the truth lies. I'm sure that there's some backpedaling going on to achieve the appearance of congruence on this matter. I'm also interested in this- Turkish Leaders and Iraqi Kurds Need to Mend Fences for Stability "Reason one: Now that the Turkish military has made its military point, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan may be better positioned to push for a diplomatic solution. 'The Turks did what they wanted to do, and we don't need any more tensions,' I was told by the prime minister of the Kurdish regional government, Nechirvan Barzani. He hopes 'after this there could be the beginning of dialogue with the Turks.' The Turkish government may be interested. The day before the air strikes, Emre Taner, chief of Turkey's national intelligence organization, visited Erbil on behalf of Erdogan and Turkish President Abdullah Gul. His message to top Kurdish leaders: The Turkish government wants good relations with the the Kurdish regional government, and it also wants the question of Kirkuk to be solved constitutionally. Reason two: There is new hope for progress on Kirkuk. All parties have agreed to let the United Nations Mission for Iraq devise a way to implement Article 140 within six months. Stefan De Mistura, the impressive U.N. special representative to Iraq, has won Kurds' trust; he helped organize the return home of more than one million Iraqi Kurdish refugees from the mountains of Turkey after the 1991 Gulf War. 'The ticking bomb [of Kirkuk] still ticks,' De Mistura told me in Erbil, 'but we have put a new engine into the acceleration of the process, called the United Nations, which has the expertise and can provide legitimacy to the process.' In this process, says De Mistura, 'Turkey has to be an important part.' Indeed, the makings of Turkish-Kurdish rapprochement can already be seen in Erbil. The dusty, low-slung provincial capital is booming with construction, which is almost all done by Turkish firms using Turkish workers. Trade with and transport from Turkey is Kurdistan's lifeline." Brigadier, money is insidious. It's corrupting influence can bend the will of nations. Trade is exploding along the Kurd-Turkish border. According to the above report Emre Taner (Turkey's #1 spy) was in Erbil/Irbil the day before the strikes. Ucar had led me to believe that direct contact between representatives of the Turkish gov't and the KRG couldn't happen. This would indicate otherwise. There's a LOT we don't know that's going on behind the scenes. __________________ "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

12-22-2007, 00:35 AM	#34 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 2,109 Country:	Big K Reply Big K, My guess is that Ucar would be slightly (or more) surprised by the direct contact between Emre Taner and Barzani. It seemed he'd indicated that the Turkish gov't was philosophically boxed-in from direct contact with the KRG. Perhaps I simply misunderstood him.

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12-22-2007, 15:30 PM	#36 (permalink)
Kansas Bear WAB Resident Historian *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 07-01-06 Location: Tornado Alley Posts: 1,515 Country:	Turkish military: Kurds in Iraq bombed ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) — Turkish warplanes bombed Kurdish rebel targets in northern Iraq on Saturday in the third confirmed cross-border offensive by Turkish forces in less than a week, a statement posted on the military's website said. The military said the bombing lasted nearly a half-hour on Saturday afternoon, and was followed by shelling from inside Turkish borders. It did not say how deep into Iraqi territory the warplanes penetrated, or which areas were shelled. It vowed to continue military operations on both sides of Turkish-Iraqi border "no matter how the conditions are," the statement said. Turkish jet fighters on Dec. 16 launched the first confirmed air assault on Iraqi soil since the U.S.-led invasion, bombing bases in northern Iraq held by the separatist Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK. The United States and Iraq both have urged Turkey to avoid a major operation in the region, fearing it could destabilize what has been the calmest area in Iraq. Turkish forces periodically have shelled across the border, and sometimes have carried out "hot pursuits" — limited raids on the Iraqi side that sometimes last only a few hours. In a Nov. 5 meeting with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, U.S. President George W. Bush declared the PKK a "common enemy," and promised to share intelligence on the group. Turkish military: Kurds in Iraq bombed - USATODAY.com

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