Kurdish region rethinking independence - Page 2

Ucar · 12-12-2007, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khan_Han

You try desperately hard not to recognize Turkey's right to certain oil reserves in Mosul and Kirkuk, despite the fact that such reserves were under the sole ownership of His Imperial Majesty, Sultan Abdul Hamid Khan. Turkey for decades has been receiving royalties from BP, Exon Mobil and all the other companies which exploit Iraqi petrol! This is because Iraq recognized the fact that Turkey had a legitimate claim to these reserves through the exiled Sultans estate. Do your research on these reserves and you shall see what I mean. It is only now that the Kurdish leadership wants to renege on these agreements and stop paying the royalties that Turkey started to show its teeth.

Here's an alternative look on Turkey's right to petroleum reserves in Mosul and Krikuk. Quoting from renowned acedemiciam Baskin Oran :

Quote:

1) The dept in question results from Article 14 of the Turkish-English-Iraqi agreement dated June 5th, 1926. Accoridngly Iraq would pay 10% of his petroleoum income to Turkey.

Iraq starts to pay these 10% immediately, and these incomes are indicated under the Budget until 1951 when the debt would end, as, "Income from Mosul petroleum according to agreement". There is no payment in 1952 and 53. In 1954, apparently Iraq is warned about past payments ans there is a significant transfer. In 1955 there is no payment, and this is shown in the budget as "estimated income"

After that there is no payment, until 1959. In that year this returns to the budget as "income", and continues until 1986 with no payment, and the statement "income".

Here's the deal : After 1955 there is no payment, because at thsi date, Adnan Menderes -as the founder of the Baghdad Pact- stops accepting these payments as a favor for his friend Nuri Sait Pasha. The reason why this returns in 1959 budget is because the coup d'etat of General Kazim kills the Pasha. Menderes is angered by this and the payment is placed in the budget again. However, this time Kasim refuses to pay.

The reason for its removal in 1986 again a favor. This time the favor is done by Turgut Ozal who wants to improve trade with Iraq.

Conclusions : This debt is not there because Iraq has not paid it, it is there beceause we could not collect it. Secondly, it is a trivial amount of money. The whole debt according to Ulugbay's calculations is 5,5 Pound Sterling, recevied part is 3,5 Pound Sterling and the ramiander is 2 million Pound Sterling. Since England has left the gold standard in 1931, the debt in consumer index prices amounts to 28-30 million pounds sterling (2003 prices)

2) Now to the "Mosul is a part of Misak-ı Milli" claim. Thsi claim that repeatedly comes out is a motto of expansionists in Turkey. Here's its legal ground : The first article of Misak-ı Milli states that the land under Ottoman Army rule as of 30 October 1918 is a part of "indispensable boundaries". At that moment, half the Mosul area is under Ottoman, and half is under British control. The British invasion, despite the 25th article is 15 days afetr Mondros.

Here some issues need to be mentioned : Firstly, Ataturk has comprehended Misak-ı Milli very adequately. He has refrained from acquiring Mosul, whereas we are not doing so. Secondly, it is us Turks who claim "Land this and that is a part of Misak-ı Milli". Although Turkey claims this, it is not binding for any other country. You can not claim "This land belongs to me as a part of my Misak-ı Milli, you need to hand it over"; you would be the laughing stock of everyone. Consequently, Batum is also a part of Misak-ı Milli. Should another country come up and say Kars-Aradhan is a part of my Misak-ı Milli, will we turn them over ?

Secondly, this, combined with the Mosul petroleum income debt creates a strange atmosphere. Does "Realizations of economic aims through military means" have another meaning other than 19th century's classicl definition of emperialism"?

I think that sums up our claims to Mosul-Kirkuk petroleum and land. I do not think further words are necessary. All errors in translation are mine.

Ucar · 12-12-2007, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khan_Han

Sn. Ucar, what are you talking about?? I truly hope you are not part of the Turkish Military establishment as you would be a discrace! 2 Kurdish Presidents, 2 Kurdish Chiefs of General Staff, Over 30 Kurdish Ministers in the Turkish political scene and you are talking about how Turkey made mistakes and failed. What else do you want Turkey to do?? The Kurds are not a minority in Turkey but a member of the fundamental fabric of Turkish society. It is only afew individuals financed from Europe that is causing all the comotion in Turkey!!

The Kurdish people need not go anywhere! They can live under the current leaderships provided that Democracy prevails. If you have Tribe elders running the show like Talabani and Barzani, then you cannot expect much from such population. The Kurdish people need democracy not land nor a State. They already have the land on which they can prosper on. They should unite with their Arab and Turkomen cousins and aim to improve their living standards in Iraq. They can go nowhere by attacking Turkey in a bid to achieve independence. They have enough autonomy to live in peace and with prosperity. All they have to do is accept the facts.

Dear Khan Han

I have served in Turkish Land Forces with pride and distinction, and resigned on my own decision. Contrary to what you think, Turkish Land Forces seems to think I was quite good at doing what I did. They still do to this date. I have expressed similar ideas during my time of service, both in writing and verbally, and officers with higher ranks than mine were tolerant enough to listen and correspond with me. It is not upto you, or anyone else to decide whether I am a disgrace or not. Moreover, it is an insult for which I will apply to the mods of the forum so you can take some time off and cool down. I will be happy to correspond further once I receive your public apology. You simply can not call anyone "a disgrace" because you do not agree with them.

I was not surprised to see that you could not bear to hear an alternative form of social dissection. You will see that I started my analysis in the post with the words "in my perception". They are my personal ideas, and I am choosing to express them on a free discussion board. You have gone beyond the threshold of intellectual discussion, and chosen to insult me personally. I will debate no further on this thread and I will offer no further remarks.

I kindly suggest that you think what it means to "express ideas" and "discuss". Here are the basics an a friendly help:

Nobody has to agree with the other; and nobody can insult the other.

Kind regards

Khan_Han · 12-12-2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ucar

Here's an alternative look on Turkey's right to petroleum reserves in Mosul and Krikuk. Quoting from renowned acedemiciam Baskin Oran :

I think that sums up our claims to Mosul-Kirkuk petroleum and land. I do not think further words are necessary. All errors in translation are mine.

So now you imply that President Abdullah Gul and the Turkish Chiefs of General Staff Gen. Buyukanit are a bunch of "expantionist" imperialists for stating that the Misaki-i-milli borders shall be reviewed.

Also, one point of correction, Ataturk did not claim Mosul and Kirkuk on the condition that it be part of a united Iraq!

Khan_Han · 12-12-2007, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ucar

Dear Khan Han

I have served in Turkish Land Forces with pride and distinction, and resigned on my own decision. Contrary to what you think, Turkish Land Forces seems to think I was quite good at doing what I did. They still do to this date. I have expressed similar ideas during my time of service, both in writing and verbally, and officers with higher ranks than mine were tolerant enough to listen and correspond with me. It is not upto you, or anyone else to decide whether I am a disgrace or not. Moreover, it is an insult for which I will apply to the mods of the forum so you can take some time off and cool down. I will be happy to correspond further once I receive your public apology. You simply can not call anyone "a disgrace" because you do not agree with them.

I was not surprised to see that you could not bear to hear an alternative form of social dissection. You will see that I started my analysis in the post with the words "in my perception". They are my personal ideas, and I am choosing to express them on a free discussion board. You have gone beyond the threshold of intellectual discussion, and chosen to insult me personally. I will debate no further on this thread and I will offer no further remarks.

I kindly suggest that you think what it means to "express ideas" and "discuss". Here are the basics an a friendly help:

Nobody has to agree with the other; and nobody can insult the other.

Kind regards

You support the notion of free speech and personal opinions yet you seem to be angered when I express MY personal opinion that your words are a disgrace...what happend to the notions of free speach and personal opinions? If it applies for one it applies for all! Since, your words were contrary to the stance taken by the Turkish Armed Forces, I am again of the opinion that your words are a disgrace because you express contrary views to the TSK. In the Turkish Armed Forces you swore on you G3 and honour that you will uphold Turkey's unity yet you seem to argue to the contrary. The PKK has murdered 40,000 innocent men, women and children including members of my family and you are here telling me that Turkey was in the wrong. Are you out of your mind. What did you want us to do, through roses at them? What should we make of this?? Please do explain. I am eager to hear your perspective.

**Officer of Engineers** · 12-12-2007, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khan_Han

Sn. Ucar, what are you talking about?? I truly hope you are not part of the Turkish Military establishment as you would be a disgrace!

14 days vacation. I don't take too kindly to insulting those who wore the uniform and bled for it.

Ucar · 12-12-2007, 10:36 AM

[quote=Khan_Han;436895]I truly hope you are not part of the Turkish Military establishment as you would be a discrace![quote]

These are your words, where you have specifically called me "a disgrace". This is completely different then saying "Your words disgrace the Turkish Miltary establishment".

I do not agree with your ideas, and words, and I have respectfully corresponded by putting forward my points without resorting to personal attacks. Expressing your ideas, and resorting to personal attacks are two different things and you know it. You have made a mistake and went down the wrong way of insulting me personally. Do not compund the error by saying this was "a freedom of expression". It is common sense that we are not free to insult others. That is not covered in any sensible definition of "freedom of expression".

A last word for you Sir. Do not twist my words. I have not argued against Turkey's unity; I have not asked anyone to throw roses at PKK. Quote my words as I have written them, or do not quote them at all.

I will discuss on this topic no further, because of the reasons I have stated above. I see no further point in doing so.

S-2 · 12-12-2007, 13:33 PM

Ucar,

I believe that we were both formerly captains and now are PFCs (Proud Ferkin' Civilians). On that alone, please don't address me as sir.

I wrote a long reply, rich in praise for you. Too rich. I'll simply say that you remain a huge resource for this board and I deeply admire your intellect. Tough issues lie ahead for Turkey. Your nation is fortunate to possess leaders of your talent.

**Parihaka** · 12-12-2007, 15:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S-2

Ucar,
I'll simply say that you remain a huge resource for this board and I deeply admire your intellect. Tough issues lie ahead for Turkey. Your nation is fortunate to possess leaders of your talent.

Seconded.

Kansas Bear · 12-13-2007, 00:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S-2

Ucar,

I believe that we were both formerly captains and now are PFCs (Proud Ferkin' Civilians). On that alone, please don't address me as sir.

I wrote a long reply, rich in praise for you. Too rich. I'll simply say that you remain a huge resource for this board and I deeply admire your intellect. Tough issues lie ahead for Turkey. Your nation is fortunate to possess leaders of your talent.

I completely agree.

J`ve · 12-13-2007, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ucar

Dear Sir S-2

Before you go on to argue and discuss with a Turk in any issue concerning the Turkish government, or anything "Turkish" thereof, here are some tips and guidelines even if we Turks like them or not....

In my perception, the Turkish political system can be summarised as a Preatorian Democracy. The system and the elites need, even require imagined or real threats in order to justify its continued existence. PKK is a reality for our every day lives. How an end, at least a plan to end can not be realized is a taboo in Turkey. It is safe to discuss it in public, read it on newspaper, but it is NOT safe to direct such questions to members of the ruling elite. There is an official reality, and a perceived reality which is immediately distorted by official channels in order not to create a question "Why?" in people's mind. If you are given the answer before you ask the question, you simply do not ask it anymore.

Turkey has suffered succcessive national traumas as a result of coups by successive military generals, and has been very successfully transformed into an apolitical country. Turkey has not faced this reality. The people responsible for such traumas are generally regarded as "great men".

The average Turkish citizen is ignorant of world affairs, heavily doctrinated, and educated well in material sciences and little to none in branches of social sciences. Thus, we have an extremely self-centric notion of reality, where all manner of actions by other countries are perceived as a threat to the existence of the nation, or the sovereignty or the country. For a Turk, national history -what little of it is revealed- ends with Ataturk's death in 1938. We are a nation whose past and identity has been cerefully and purposefully destroyed.

Now we will revert to the discussion at hand.

Successive Turkish governments have repeatedly announced that they would accept only a unitary Iraq. In saying this, nobody imagined that the unitary Iraq would contain a KRG. Turkish rulers imagined that unitary meant what it meant in Turkey.

Naturally, this binds other alternatives in foreign policy and alternative approaches. Now, we can not "openly" move in a friendly manner towards the KRG because it undermines what was said earlier. Therefore, we are forced to revert to backdoor channels with reduced effect. Even if we wanted to establish tangible links with the KRG via Baghdad government, this would create immeasurable problems in domestic politics.

So True.

Big K · 12-13-2007, 11:59 AM

"Turkey has suffered succcessive national traumas as a result of coups by successive military generals, and has been very successfully transformed into an apolitical country. Turkey has not faced this reality. The people responsible for such traumas are generally regarded as "great men"."

i totally agree

"The average Turkish citizen is ignorant of world affairs, heavily doctrinated, and educated well in material sciences and little to none in branches of social sciences. Thus, we have an extremely self-centric notion of reality, where all manner of actions by other countries are perceived as a threat to the existence of the nation, or the sovereignty or the country. For a Turk, national history -what little of it is revealed- ends with Ataturk's death in 1938. We are a nation whose past and identity has been cerefully and purposefully destroyed."

i partially(underlined part) agree...but the rest is a little bit brutal isnt it?...we have to discuss the reasons of this ignorance being heavily doctrinated, and destroyed history...

but i always try to read carefully what you write...i may not have the same idea but we are not free to insult others...

Ucar · 12-14-2007, 03:23 AM

Dear Big K

Thank you for the patience and the effort you have displayed in reading my post. I completely agree that it is essential to discuss why and how our society was transformed by decision makers.

I will not argue it under this thread however, becasue of the ugly ways this discussion evolved over time. I will be happy to correspond forther another time, under another thread. Fresh starts are always better for everyone.

AmosGraber · 12-19-2007, 05:10 AM

The above arguments are a visible reflection of the world still trying to live with the aftermath of the British Empire's mandated countries after World War I. These countries such as Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordon were countries the French and British drew up to divide up the Ottoman Empire. These invisible lines drawn almost over 100 years ago do not work today. All free-minded people who support liberty should also support the long forgotten tradition of "self-determination".

Why is it so wrong for people who share a common culture, ethnicly, religiously, or social wanting to be self-independent. We need to erase the fabricated nation boundaries of the 20th century. Therefore allowing people to seek their own types of government, regardless if it upsets anyone elses perceived national pride. If the Kurds want their own state, allow them, if the Sunni's in Iraq want their own state, allow them, if Shi'a want their own state her to even join with Iran allow them. People should of the liberty to choose their own self-determining allegiances. All the Americans are doing is making the same mistakes the British and French did earlier in the 20th century.

neyzen · 12-19-2007, 06:25 AM

You can't allow all of them at the same time. There are far more groups than you named for self-independence and of course non of them consent to leave oil zones to others.

Ray · 12-20-2007, 13:54 PM

Quote:

For Turkey and U.S., a Delicate Issue of Cooperation in Combating Militant Kurds

By HELENE COOPER
Published: December 20, 2007

WASHINGTON — Turkey provided the United States with ample warning that it was making an incursion into Iraq this week, officials from the State and Defense Departments said Wednesday.

The question of whether Turkish authorities gave their counterparts adequate warning percolated after some American officials in Washington and Baghdad said the two countries needed to improve communication, administration officials said.

While the United States provided Turkey with the intelligence to go after Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq, there has been some mild grumbling from the State Department that not everyone up the chain of command was adequately informed beforehand. A senior administration official said most of that concern centered on Turkey’s decision to “chase some bad guys they followed over the border.”

Turkish troops carried out a brief attack into northern Iraq overnight Monday. The Turkish military, in a statement on its Web site, said the troops had inflicted heavy losses on the Kurdish forces after spotting them trying to cross into Turkey.

The operation took place two days after Turkey carried out broad airstrikes in northern Iraq against the group. The United States provided intelligence and opened Iraqi airspace for the strikes, American and Turkish officials said. Iraqi officials have protested the attacks.

The Turkish moves have placed the United States in a delicate position between Turkey, a NATO ally, and an Iraqi government that has refused to act against the Kurdish militants.

In trying to minimize the appearance of any rift, American military officers in Washington and overseas said the Turkish ground force sent across the border numbered only in the hundreds and moved less than two miles into Iraqi territory.

The senior Bush administration official said that, over all, American officials were satisfied with the coordination between the United States and Turkey. The United States, Iraq and Turkey have an office in Ankara, the Turkish capital, to share intelligence.

“Let me put it this way,” said a Pentagon spokesman, Geoff Morrell, using the initials by which the Kurdistan Workers Party is known. “We had ample notification of the airstrikes by the Turkish Air Force over the weekend on P.K.K. positions in northern Iraq. I can sit here today and tell you emphatically there was indeed notification provided to us prior to the bombing — bombings — that it was communicated to us through an apparatus that we have set up in Ankara, the Ankara Coordination Center.”

The United States considers the P.K.K. a terrorist organization. The group, which wants an autonomous Kurdish region in eastern Turkey, has fought the Turkish military for decades.

Thom Shanker contributed reporting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/wo...ld&oref=slogin

Comments from the experts, please.

12-12-2007, 13:33 PM	#22 (permalink)
S-2 *Military Professional* Join Date: 09-11-06 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 2,057 Country:	Ucar Reply Ucar, I believe that we were both formerly captains and now are PFCs (Proud Ferkin' Civilians). On that alone, please don't address me as sir. I wrote a long reply, rich in praise for you. Too rich. I'll simply say that you remain a huge resource for this board and I deeply admire your intellect. Tough issues lie ahead for Turkey. Your nation is fortunate to possess leaders of your talent. __________________ "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski

12-13-2007, 11:59 AM	#26 (permalink)
Big K HürGeneral *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-11-06 Location: Istanbul Posts: 1,042 Country:	"Turkey has suffered succcessive national traumas as a result of coups by successive military generals, and has been very successfully transformed into an apolitical country. Turkey has not faced this reality. The people responsible for such traumas are generally regarded as "great men"." i totally agree "The average Turkish citizen is ignorant of world affairs, heavily doctrinated, and educated well in material sciences and little to none in branches of social sciences. Thus, we have an extremely self-centric notion of reality, where all manner of actions by other countries are perceived as a threat to the existence of the nation, or the sovereignty or the country. For a Turk, national history -what little of it is revealed- ends with Ataturk's death in 1938. We are a nation whose past and identity has been cerefully and purposefully destroyed." i partially(underlined part) agree...but the rest is a little bit brutal isnt it?...we have to discuss the reasons of this ignorance being heavily doctrinated, and destroyed history... but i always try to read carefully what you write...i may not have the same idea but we are not free to insult others... __________________ When i say, there will be no effect but i am not willing to remain silent. -Fuzuli

12-19-2007, 05:10 AM	#28 (permalink)
AmosGraber Regular Join Date: 08-13-07 Location: La Junta, Colorado Posts: 39 Country:	The above arguments are a visible reflection of the world still trying to live with the aftermath of the British Empire's mandated countries after World War I. These countries such as Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordon were countries the French and British drew up to divide up the Ottoman Empire. These invisible lines drawn almost over 100 years ago do not work today. All free-minded people who support liberty should also support the long forgotten tradition of "self-determination". Why is it so wrong for people who share a common culture, ethnicly, religiously, or social wanting to be self-independent. We need to erase the fabricated nation boundaries of the 20th century. Therefore allowing people to seek their own types of government, regardless if it upsets anyone elses perceived national pride. If the Kurds want their own state, allow them, if the Sunni's in Iraq want their own state, allow them, if Shi'a want their own state her to even join with Iran allow them. People should of the liberty to choose their own self-determining allegiances. All the Americans are doing is making the same mistakes the British and French did earlier in the 20th century. __________________ Wherever there is authority, there is no freedom-Prince Peter Kropotkin

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12-12-2007, 10:36 AM	#21 (permalink)
Ucar *Military Professional* Join Date: 06-19-07 Posts: 292 Country:	[quote=Khan_Han;436895]I truly hope you are not part of the Turkish Military establishment as you would be a discrace![quote] These are your words, where you have specifically called me "a disgrace". This is completely different then saying "Your words disgrace the Turkish Miltary establishment". I do not agree with your ideas, and words, and I have respectfully corresponded by putting forward my points without resorting to personal attacks. Expressing your ideas, and resorting to personal attacks are two different things and you know it. You have made a mistake and went down the wrong way of insulting me personally. Do not compund the error by saying this was "a freedom of expression". It is common sense that we are not free to insult others. That is not covered in any sensible definition of "freedom of expression". A last word for you Sir. Do not twist my words. I have not argued against Turkey's unity; I have not asked anyone to throw roses at PKK. Quote my words as I have written them, or do not quote them at all. I will discuss on this topic no further, because of the reasons I have stated above. I see no further point in doing so.

12-14-2007, 03:23 AM	#27 (permalink)
Ucar *Military Professional* Join Date: 06-19-07 Posts: 292 Country:	Dear Big K Thank you for the patience and the effort you have displayed in reading my post. I completely agree that it is essential to discuss why and how our society was transformed by decision makers. I will not argue it under this thread however, becasue of the ugly ways this discussion evolved over time. I will be happy to correspond forther another time, under another thread. Fresh starts are always better for everyone.

12-19-2007, 06:25 AM	#29 (permalink)
neyzen Patron Join Date: 04-22-06 Posts: 212 Country:	You can't allow all of them at the same time. There are far more groups than you named for self-independence and of course non of them consent to leave oil zones to others.

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