Feanor

I never said it didn't work. Actually it does . I just find it incredibly close-minded on bluesmans part to blame it all on one side. And why is anyone surprised btw? It's been going on forever. And with capitalism at the helm it will continue to go on. As I've said in another thread: maggots are attracted to rotten meat (in this case corpse).

Stan187

While as I said, most Republicans hear what they want to hear and most Democrats hear what they want to hear, that doesn't make Bluesman close-minded in the least. He's talking about the defeatist attitude that is being taken towards the war. And the reality is, that this coming overwhelmingly from one side. That's his point, is that while a lot of us only hear what we want to hear, for Dems the magic words that they want to hear are withdrawal.

__________________
In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

astralis

stan,

you mean they're not already dividing up and doing power grabs already along sectarian and tribal lines?

you have hit upon one important point, which is the creation of security. now the question remains, is the government which we're helping empower in baghdad interested in creating security for all, or simply security for shi'a?

this is quite the tricky question.

in any case, the next few months should be interesting here. having succeeded in anbar, petraeus will now try to re-create his success in other parts of iraq. he's given himself the deadline of summer of '08 to move around the extra troops as provided by the surge; this means he's going to be moving into shi'a territory. how the GOI and JAM respond to this, well, this will be a good test to see if the iraqi government can respond to the extra effort america is making here.

__________________
Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.

-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Feanor

One side is ready to surrender, the other one is ready to human wave at the machineguns. Which one are you going to vote for? (yes I'm exaggerating but that's about the attitudes taken by the two parties, and neither offers an intelligent solution)

Stan187

Even more nuanced than that.. are shias willing to take security for both sides? Or do they just want security for themselves but to keep the sunnis on the run? And which shias, while we are at it?

Bluesman

Anybody catch the testimony? RIVETING, and the Democrats, as usual, were worse than expected, and that's saying a LOT, considering how bad everybody has gotten used to them being.

My favorite moment HAD to be the microphone debacle that so enraged Skelton that he can be heard (on other mikes that happened to be working...because they were privately-owned, not government property) swearing. Wait, that's not the punch line. The mike fiasco came immediately after one Democrat after another was pronouncing the Iraqi government incompetent, can't do anything right, total confusion, etc. etc.



Comedy GOLD, people.

__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

Bluesman

Just read this:
Heh.

astralis

well, the GOI is not wholly incompetent, after all: in addition to the microphones, the iraqi ministry of the interior's interrogation/torture cells are run pretty competently, if half the reports about it are true.

astralis

stan,

if you can answer that, i think you just got yourself a position on petraeus's all-star staff

so far, what we've seen has not been encouraging. i've seen isolated reports of shi'a helping out old sunni friends and vice versa, but nothing indicative yet for a basis for national reconciliation, either top-down or bottom-up.

and if basra is any indication, the hakims and the sadr clans are gonna be making it hot for each other for years.

it will be interesting if sadr ends up beating hakim. the sunni tribes we've been working with in anbar and other places don't exactly feel warm feelings for those associated with JAM.

Dreadnought

Yeah, Biden knows better then the man on the ground. To even entertain the idea that he may know more then Petreaus is just plain bold stupidity. And hes going to insist on a time line? Perhaps maybe somebody should insist he sit down shut the **** up and open his ears and his eyes and leave the conflict to the man in charge. Im certain he has multiple years of experience far beyond all the Dems who want to run the campaign for the general. Nice to think you can do so from Washington Senator **** for brains! It takes more then a few weekends in the zone to really grasp what is going on. He must have instincts far better then any of the brass. Please somebody get the white cane out and drag him off the floor before he says something even more stupid.

__________________
Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

astralis

dreadnought,

while i'm not saying biden does know more than petraeus,

good ideas can come from all corners. westmoreland was the man on the ground, yet he ran the vietnam war incompetently. criticize ideas based on their merit, and not from whence they came.

Dreadnought

Hi Astralis,
I do belive that good ideas may come from any corner of the floor. But you must admit that since gaining the house the Dems have not respected any of the Repub,President etc. People fail to understand that those troops hands are tied by politics, politics and more politics.They can do their job very VERY proficiently and could have done so by now. Its the politics that kills their progress and has been from the start. The Dems seem to know all the answers by pointing fingers and circumnavigating the present administration and it has snowballed into flat out disrespect on all sides but nothing has yet come fourth respectively, positive from them. I wonder why. All they want is a date which is all AKI wants as well and they wont be satisfied until they get one. I have no problem with checks and balances but enough with the bullchit spewing from their mouths and endangering further the troops and the government we are their to support and help protect. They may have good ideas as well but stop with the dam disrespect they are shoveling at the military and an administration at present. If you want to live in the White House thats fine but you will never get there scrapping the barrel of disrespect at both the current administraion and the military operations and they just seem to find new heights to achieve in disrespect and it sickens me to think this idiot is going to stand there and disrespect a 4 star general whose address is not sitting in Washington pointing fingers and saying that its flat out wrong. My 2 cents worth with respect..

Bluesman

Well, since Iraq isn't Switzerland, what say we just throw the whole project away, and with it, the future of all Iraqis and Gawd-knows how many other people in the region that counted on this coming out right?

Maybe THAT is what we should do.

astralis

bluesman,

i'd be a hell of a lot more comfortable if the GOI was actually competent in other fields- after all, taiwan was a brutal dictatorship until the late 80s, but at least its government was reasonably competent when it came to actual state-building.

however, in iraq, the government seems to be expert in just sectarian concerns alone and nothing else. so the point remains, are we empowering a government that will only prove to be a curse upon its own citizens? if we do, we betray the iraqis whom have helped us as much, if not more, than if we abandoned them to their own devices.

dalem

The first try at U.S. government sucked goat spheres as well.

Why the rush for perfection?

-dale