Pragnosis

It's quite clear that I'm on my own here, it's not too much of a surprise though.

Bluesman, the quote that I made of 'average intelligence' was not meant to offend. If I did so, then I apologise. Correct me if I am wrong, it seems fairly likely that the majority of people who join the US military are from the poorer parts of the country. In Farenheit 9/11, Michael Moore stated that this is the case, and when it showed the aggressive recruitment tactics used to approach unemployed teenagers, it seemed kind of intimidating and forceful.

Also Bluesman, you're basically saying that I am completely 'WRONG' and that I won't budge my position. That comment of 'centre of pragnosis' mind' could be taken as quite offensive, basically stating that this is all in my imagination. I do not suffer from paranoid delusions / psychosis, I just happen to believe that the US Government is corrupt. You're probably right, nothing will change my mind, but that's the whole point of a debate. I shouldn't have said that I am a neutral observer because that isn't true, but I did so because I didn't want to come across as a nutty conspiracy theorist.

You're in the military, so you're obviously going to be completely biased. There are lots of questions to be asked about this war and 9/11 and I don't believe in blind faith because I'm not that naive. When are you guys going to wake up and realise that, in the western world, life is about money, period.

Shek

The veteran in the first video is a fraud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Macbeth

The latter two videos are legit from what I could tell. I don't have too much respect for the lad in the last video who is unwilling to face up to his choices and responsibilities - if he really believes in what he's saying, then he should be willing to face the charges and stand up.

In any event, no one will deny that non-combatants have been killed and that mistakes have been, so any argument down this road is a strawman. Also, an argument that only these soldiers have a conscience is fallacious.

__________________
"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

astralis

pragnosis,

if michael moore is the best source you can come up with, you're in trouble. i'm sure he's completely unbiased... check up US military forces data, you'll see your belief that the US military is filled with under-educated and poor individuals as decidedly untrue.

since when was everyone in the military completely biased? do you think that they don't have their own opinions, as well? aren't you insulting bluesman again by this comment?

there's a lot of questions to be asked, but if you're coming from a decided mindset, you're not really asking them, are you.

as for chinese democracy in 15 years...hahahahahahah no. if you said 45-55, maybe.

__________________
Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present.

-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Pragnosis

Since when is 2015 in 15 years??? I think you should read the post properly. I am just going off a couple of documents that I read regarding this prediction.

Regarding the soldiers of the US Army, do you not think that Michael Moore may have done research of his own???

Anyway, I'm tired of this now, not one single person agrees with anything that I am saying. It's obvious that you're all hard republican's and are totally for the war, so discussion ended.

Thanks.

Trooth

Er? I am a die hard Republican? Jeez guys why did no one tell me?

I must retire to the drawing room and do the honourable thing.

But before I do.

Pragnosis - Something to think about. Without doubt there is more that goes on behind closed doors than we know about. However when looking for the hidden plots - the conspiracy theories if you will, have you ever noticed how there are nearly always multiple conspiracy thoeries? Now, they can't all be true.

Perhaps the Carlyle Group paid Marlyn Monroe to fake her own death and then destroy the WTC using sophisticated holographic models and pulverising rays derived from alien technology. Perhaps. But when you look at these theories they start to fall apart.

I once had a debate with a chap in Switzerland who ran a website explaining the truth about the destruction of the WTC. The problem, i pointed out to him, was that he had 6 different theories on his truth site - so which one was it? All he wanted was a conspiracy, and therefore he completely lost sight of his search for the truth.

Now, as the posters on this board know, i often don't agree with many of them, despite my die hard GOP leanings (am i the donkey or the elephant?) but nearly everyone here has some insight and amazes you with the breadth of knowledge they show. Therefore take your healthy scepticism, take some time, sit back, read, enjoy, do some research of your own and try not to cover all bases with one post.

And breaking my own rule :-

Bush need not be the most intelligent man on the planet. What he needs to be is a good leader and a good communicator. Cheney is often referred to as the most powerful US Vice President ever. That does not make Bush a puppet. I (at least I thought i did) come from a country with a political style that is much more combative and vociferous than the US. Therefore i am used to verbal jousting and debate that is faster and slicker than anything Dubya needs to deal with on a day to day basis. So to me, Dubya seems a poor communicator, but he isn't explaining stuff to me (apparently he gets my vote anyway), and the people he is explaining to relate to his "folksy" style - "he speaks like i do" is a frequent comment about Bush. So remember, just because it is different does not make it wrong.

__________________
The world as it should be at surrealscoop.blogspot.com

Shek

Pragnosis,

Your desire to question is worthy. Your statement that money drives western behavior is true, and it's actually a beautiful thing how it can efficiently allocate resources through the "invisible hand." I highly encourage you to undertake some study of economics so that you can learn how people are made better through their own self-desires (and that even seemingly altruistic behavior is selfish as well; however, the payment isn't in dollars or pounds or euros, it's in some other form that holds value to the person performing the seemingly altruistic work). This doesn't mean that there isn't a role for government, as the private market does lead to some failures. All in all, it is a wonderful thing.

However, you really don't seem willing to confront the many arguments before you. For example, Iraq is a losing proposition right now from a purely accounting perspective, and that's if you indulge the fanatasy that the US is stealing every single drop of Iraqi oil. Given the fact that we haven't taken a drop of Iraqi oil that I am aware of (do you have evidence of such???), then the balance sheet is, and forever will be in the red. Thus, on the very face of it, your argument holds no credibility.

As far as the demographics question of the US military, here's a link for you. It's from a conservative think tank, but the data is sourced, making this a transparent document for those that wish to question its results.

As far as being in the military, one's personal beliefs need not coincide with one's professional obligations. For example, I really don't see a big deal in having gays in the military. If they are disruptive to units, then kick them out just like any other soldier who is disruptive to the unit. However, as a professional, I am required to uphold the regulations and law, which is dictated by the United States Congress (so if one doesn't like "don't ask, don't tell," then talk to those who made it law and can change it). Does it surprise you than a military man would be willing to accept having gays in the military? I could bring up scores of topics where I'm sure your stereotype of the military member would fall flat on its face.

If you are unwilling to accept that you can't just place people into buckets based on a single title, whether it be Republican, Democrat, military, etc., then let me know so I don't waste any more time on your posts. However, if you can demonstrate the flexibility of mind to understand that while people may be grouped into general categories, but that these categories will more often than not fail to capture the essence of an individual, then I will gladly discuss this issue or others with you.

Shek

LOL!

Pragnosis,

astralis is a Democrat, if my memory serves me correct, and while I am a conservative with some libertarian streaks, I am not a Republican, but an independent when it comes to voting. I look at the issues, not the party.

Pragnosis

Nice post. I agree, the posters here obviously have a decent amount of knowledge on the subject. I shall take your advice. I'm just tired of people dissecting my posts and ripping them to bits, completing discrediting me and making my views sound as though I'm desperate for a conspiracy, which I am not, I'd much rather believe everything is great!

Bluesman

A good answer, shek. My first impulse was to tell him to suck it.

Seriously, this guy's an idiot. He cites Moore as an authority on American military demographics. He thinks The Guardian is interested in telling him the truth about the Iraq War. He thinks 101 things that he gets quite literally straight from founts of rank propaganda, THEN he says anybody that tells him anything different is BIASED? 'HOPELESSLY BIASED' is, I believe, the exact phrase he used about me.

Well, 'GROSSLY MIS-INFORMED' is my counter. And MY phrase is provably accurate; his is just a snooty, throw-away, garden-variety slander.

__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

Bluesman

Now, THAT is simply priceless. No, son, the whole point of debate IS to change another's mind through force of logic. However, if that proves to be impossible due to the invincible ignorance of the other party...there is NO point in debate.

Pragnosis

Bluesman,

Why are you being such a pr!ck? Don't call me an idiot, stop being personal and grow up. FYI, I don't see Michael Moore as an authority figure, I just believe that he must have done research by himself. The Guardian is a well respected newspaper in the UK.

Okay, to state that I am not willing to budge my position is a bit arrogant, so I will take that back. This forum seems to have a lot of people who are obviously far more educated on the subject than I, so I will reconsider.

Parihaka

LOL, I'm a libertarian with left leanings, you're a liberal democrat, in other words a tory in drag. If you think Michael Moore is an authority you really need to get out moore.

edit: oh and speaking personally, my main reasons for supporting the war in Iraq is that a mass-murdering genocidal fuchead got to have his day in court. Doesn't happen often enough.

Shek

Pragnosis,
A quick question, one that you don't need to answer if you don't want to, but how old are you? The reason I'm asking is that given that you haven't taken an economics course, my assumption is that you are in high school or maybe just started your university? While the forum members won't let things go just because a young adult is posting, many times, the tone will be more accomodating on average.

Pragnosis

I'm 25. How old are you guys?

It was not my intention to offend anybody, this seems to have got out of hand with some. It does seem as though I have overlooked some very important points.

Shek, what is your opinion on 9/11? This is where it all started for me.

Parihaka

Pragnosis, here's a link to the full blown oil-for-blood theory. I did a lot of research myself on this and it just doesn't wash.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html

http://www.energybulletin.net/12125.html

Now these are well put together pieces, far better than the average conspiracy theories and on the surface credible, the only problem with them is that they don't work in the real world: what they predict hasn't come to pass.

It's like Michael Moore, just because he looks the part of a caring liberal taking it to the man, doesn't mean that he's actually telling the truth.