Three Choices, Mr. President - Page 3

Anon · 10-30-2006, 20:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astralis

m21,

meh, my public school days were quite normal and not particularly violent, despite the presence of asians, hispanics, blacks, and whites. no one "forced" me to make friends with anyone i didn't like.

You should spend a week at my Alma Matter- Frankford High school in Philadelphia.

You'd have a much different view on this matter, i assure you.

For instance, i can tell you that the white neighborhood toughs in my inner city hood just LOVED having bus upon bus full of North Philly ghetto blacks shipped into(and wandering when they didnt go to classes) our neighborhood, and the blacks just LOVED to show us how tough they were. I have seen(and participated in) a couple huge racial melees as a result of forced segregation...OUTSIDE of school!(And a few more inside it too)

Similar racially motivated events occur at Washington HS(in a russian neighborhood), Lincoln HS, NE High, and all the other formerly white schools on a regular basis. And they have since the day segregation started. (all those schools are virtually all black now, defeating the entire purpose of forced desegregation to begin with IMO)

It's probably actually not as bad now as when i was a kid seeing as how today's white youths actually embrace black culture(the "Wigger" phenomenon).

When i was a youth, being black was not exactly what we were striving for, and well, we did not like it when white girls dated black guys(at all...which was a constant source of endless violence, on school grounds...and off).

And of course once 2 thousand violent young ghetto blacks are wandering the streets of predominately white neighborhoods the whites get scared silly and emigrate to better neighborhoods, destroying property values, and causing a massive influx of 'low class' purchasers to fill the rapidly abandoned neighborhood.

Do that for a few years, and viola....a new ghetto is born. In my life i have watched NE philly turn from a 'all white' low crime section of the city to a mostly black, crime infested, blighted shiit-hole.

And you expect me to say segregation has been good? No way bro.

No way.

Look...there's a bus full o' the ghetto bruthas now!

Quote:

Originally Posted by astralis

in any case, i think r lee ermey's little quote is pretty good on the subject.

"I do not look down on ******s, kikes, wops or greasers. Here you are all equally worthless". - DI Hartman

I love that quote(and that movie).

PS: Funny that wops(which is actually an acronym for "WithOut Papers", greasers, and kikes is OK, but Niggahz is ***** out. PC is great, aint it? LOL...

I realize none of what i say will be popular, but it is definitely the dirty truth- at least here.

leib10 · 10-30-2006, 23:05 PM

Some the stuff you mentioned happens here all the time. Tensions are naturally high between the badly outnumbered whites and the Hispanics. Huge, mindless race fights have occurred in and out of my HS. I've seen several.

The predominantly Hispanic staff is usually more sympathetic to their own kind than the whites. For instance, it's okay for a cholo to call a white kid a "gringo" or a "guero", but it's totally inappropriate for a white kid to call a cholo a "spic" or a "beaner". Invariably, anybody who says that will get his ass beat good. As a white kid I learned to just let the insults pass over me, because I couldn't win.

PC's a biitch.

**Shek** · 10-30-2006, 23:12 PM

Pedro offers you his protection.

**Julie** · 10-30-2006, 23:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astralis

julie,
i was referring to segregation in american schools, not state-state actions.

Hey, well, then I'm your girl !

Let me see, that's about the time I was going through elementary school here in the Deep South.

Last day of school, each year mind you, parents picked up their kids due to riots between blacks and whites. This went on for years.

That sure is an eventful day to have on the last day of school, isn't it? That's the sort of memories I have of my "school days."

The blacks didn't want to be there, and the whites didn't want them there. It may be a racist statement, but it's the truth.

Anon · 10-30-2006, 23:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leibstandarte10

As a white kid I learned to just let the insults pass over me, because I couldn't win.

PC's a biitch.

F that. I just got beat up a lot until i learned(through extensive trial and error) how to fight. Once you learn to fight, and people know you can(and at the drop of a hat will) fight, that shiit stops real sudden like.

It is a very painful path to walk to get there though. LOL...

leib10 · 10-30-2006, 23:32 PM

Ach, the cholos don't have a concept of a "fair fight". Sure, I'd take on one of them, but they fight in bands of 8 or 9, and are almost always armed with clubs and chains.

Hell, one guy got stabbed with a screwdriver and died.

Besides, I didn't really care enough about being called names by a bunch of lowlife morons to get myself all worked up about it. I made it through just fine.

Anon · 10-31-2006, 18:13 PM

To each his own my friend.

Ray · 11-01-2006, 16:52 PM

Here's your update on the thread beyond the black and white!

Quote:

Military Charts Movement of Conflict in Iraq Toward Chaos

By MICHAEL R. GORDON
Published: November 1, 2006

WASHINGTON, Oct. 30 — A classified briefing prepared two weeks ago by the United States Central Command portrays Iraq as edging toward chaos, in a chart that the military is using as a barometer of civil conflict.

A one-page slide shown at the Oct. 18 briefing provides a rare glimpse into how the military command that oversees the war is trying to track its trajectory, particularly in terms of sectarian fighting.

The slide includes a color-coded bar chart that is used to illustrate an “Index of Civil Conflict.” It shows a sharp escalation in sectarian violence since the bombing of a Shiite shrine in Samarra in February, and tracks a further worsening this month despite a concerted American push to tamp down the violence in Baghdad.

In fashioning the index, the military is weighing factors like the ineffectual Iraqi police and the dwindling influence of moderate religious and political figures, rather than more traditional military measures such as the enemy’s fighting strength and the control of territory.

The conclusions the Central Command has drawn from these trends are not encouraging, according to a copy of the slide that was obtained by The New York Times. The slide shows Iraq as moving sharply away from “peace,” an ideal on the far left side of the chart, to a point much closer to the right side of the spectrum, a red zone marked “chaos.” As depicted in the command’s chart, the needle has been moving steadily toward the far right of the chart.

An intelligence summary at the bottom of the slide reads “urban areas experiencing ‘ethnic cleansing’ campaigns to consolidate control” and “violence at all-time high, spreading geographically.” According to a Central Command official, the index on civil strife has been a staple of internal command briefings for most of this year. The analysis was prepared by the command’s intelligence directorate, which is overseen by Brig. Gen. John M. Custer.

Gen. John P. Abizaid, who heads the command, warned publicly in August about the risk of civil war in Iraq, but he said then that he thought it could be averted. In evaluating the prospects for all-out civil strife, the command concentrates on “key reads,” or several principal variables.

According to the slide from the Oct. 18 briefing, the variables include “hostile rhetoric” by political and religious leaders, which can be measured by listening to sermons at mosques and to important Shiite and Sunni leaders, and the amount of influence that moderate political and religious figures have over the population. The other main variables are assassinations and other especially provocative sectarian attacks, as well as “spontaneous mass civil conflict.”

A number of secondary indicators are also taken into account, including activity by militias, problems with ineffective police, the ability of Iraqi officials to govern effectively, the number of civilians who have been forced to move by sectarian violence, the willingness of Iraqi security forces to follow orders, and the degree to which the Iraqi Kurds are pressing for independence from the central government.

These factors are evaluated to create the index of civil strife, which has registered a steady worsening for months. “Ever since the February attack on the Shiite mosque in Samarra, it has been closer to the chaos side than the peace side,” said a Central Command official who asked not to be identified because he was talking about classified information.

In the Oct. 18 brief, the index moved still another notch toward “chaos.” That briefing was prepared three days before General Abizaid met in Washington with President Bush, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Gen. Peter Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to take stock of the situation in Iraq.

A spokesman for the Central Command declined to comment on the index or other information in the slide. “We don’t comment on secret material,” the spokesman said.

One significant factor in the military’s decision to move the scale toward “chaos” was the expanding activity by militias.

Another reason was the limitations of Iraqi government security forces, which despite years of training and equipping by the United States, are either ineffective or, in some cases, infiltrated by the very militias they are supposed to be combating. The slide notes that “ineffectual” Iraqi police forces have been a significant problem, and cites as a concern sectarian conflicts between Iraqi security forces.

Other significant factors are in the political realm. The slide notes that Iraq’s political and religious leaders have lost some of their moderating influence over their constituents or adherents.

Notably, the slide also cites difficulties that the new Iraqi administration has experienced in “governance.” That appears to be shorthand for the frustration felt by American military officers about the Iraqi government’s delays in bringing about a genuine political reconciliation between Shiites and Sunnis. It also appears to apply to the lack of reconstruction programs to restore essential services and the dearth of job creation efforts to give young Iraqis an alternative to joining militias, as well as the absence of firm action against militias.

The slide lists other factors that are described as important but less significant. They include efforts by Iran and Syria to enable violence by militias and insurgent groups and the interest by many Kurds in achieving independence. The slide describes violence motivated by sectarian differences as having moved into a “critical” phase.

The chart does note some positive developments. Specifically, it notes that “hostile rhetoric” by political and religious leaders has not increased. It also notes that Iraqi security forces are refusing less often than in the past to take orders from the central government and that there has been a drop-off in mass desertions.

Still, for a military culture that thrives on PowerPoint briefings, the shifting index was seen by some officials as a stark warning about the difficult course
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/01/wo...=1&oref=slogin

Tough times ahead.

No light at the end of the tunnel can be seen!

**astralis** · 11-01-2006, 17:57 PM

m21,

Quote:

you'd have a much different view on this matter, i assure you.

seems to me that the big difference was probably affluence. my public school, and the families that sent their kids there, were well-off. i remember quite a few kids of various races who would break down crying after they got a few B's on their exams- that meant no harvard for them

fighting? mein gott, you would be sent to the principal! and then no bimmer from daddy on their 18th birthday, the poor souls!

Ray · 11-01-2006, 18:08 PM

Thank heavens that in India we don't have whites or blacks.

We are all browns!

Anon · 11-03-2006, 21:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astralis

m21,

seems to me that the big difference was probably affluence. my public school, and the families that sent their kids there, were well-off. i remember quite a few kids of various races who would break down crying after they got a few B's on their exams- that meant no harvard for them

fighting? mein gott, you would be sent to the principal! and then no bimmer from daddy on their 18th birthday, the poor souls!

Yeah, well, Philadelphia(and the world in general) aint like that for 99% of us.

Ray · 11-05-2006, 10:42 AM

Quote:

General Plays Down Discord Between U.S. and Iraqis

By KIRK SEMPLE
Published: November 3, 2006

BAGHDAD, Nov. 2 — The top American military spokesman here on Thursday played down recent discord between the American and Iraqi governments, saying that while there had been “disconnects,” the leaders of both countries were working closely to achieve political stability in Iraq.

“A transition is not always a pleasant thing to watch as it happens,” the spokesman, Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell IV, said during a news briefing in Baghdad. “We need to have more dialogue, as was clearly evidenced by the fact that there have been some disconnects that have occurred in this transition period.”

On Tuesday, in the latest public flare-up of tension, Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, under pressure from Shiite political leaders and outraged Baghdad residents, demanded that American troops remove a week-old cordon that had been set up around the Shiite district of Sadr City as part of the search for a missing American soldier.

General Caldwell said Thursday that a “tremendous amount of political activity” was under way to secure the release of the soldier, who was reported taken on Oct. 23 after he left the fortified Green Zone, without permission, to visit relatives in central Baghdad.

“There is ongoing dialogue that is being done at different levels at this time,” the general said, though he refused to provide any details of those conversations.

General Caldwell confirmed that the soldier was Specialist Ahmed Qusai al-Taie, a 41-year-old Iraqi-American reservist, and that he was married to an Iraqi woman. His wife was among the relatives Specialist Taie was visiting when he was abducted, the general said, adding that officials believed that the soldier was still alive and being held by his original captors.

The American command has dedicated more than 2,000 American troops and more than 1,000 members of Iraqi security forces to the search operation, which has focused on Sadr City and the central Baghdad neighborhood of Karrada, where Specialist Taie was taken. The authorities suspect involvement by the Mahdi Army, a large Shiite militia that controls Sadr City and is loyal to the Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr.

The manhunt has angered some American troops in Iraq, who have privately complained that the military should not expend any additional resources, or put any troops at further risk, to search for a soldier who had violated military rules and exposed himself to danger by leaving his post without military protection.

But on Thursday, perhaps addressing those complaints, General Caldwell said, “We never stop looking for our service members.”

Prime Minister Maliki’s demand to end the search cordon put additional strain on an increasingly fractious relationship between him and President Bush.

The Iraqi leader has wrestled for more independence from his American protectors, including greater control of Iraq’s security, which is dominated by the Americans. According to General Caldwell, the prime minister announced an initiative this week to expand the Iraqi military by about 18,700 troops.

The top American military commander in Iraq, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., said last week that Iraqi security forces still needed 12 to 18 months before they would be ready to take full control of the country’s security. But Iraq’s president, Jalal Talabani, offered a more conservative prediction, saying during a speech in Paris on Thursday that Iraq’s security forces would be ready to assume full responsibility in two to three years.

“Two to three years are needed to build our security forces and say goodbye to our friends,” said Mr. Talabani, who is on a six-day visit to France.

General Caldwell said some measurements of violence in Iraq had indicated a decrease since the holy month of Ramadan ended early last week, including a 23 percent drop in casualties across the country from the week before.

“Those statistics are promising, but as I’ve said before, one week does not constitute a trend,” he cautioned.

Indeed, a wide range of attacks on Thursday drew from the entire repertoire of tactics used by the country’s death squads and criminal groups: vehicle bombs, mortar bomb attacks, bombs concealed along urban and rural roadways, ambushes, assassinations, drive-by shootings and kidnappings.

At least 37 people were killed, including civilians and security forces, and 97 wounded in more than two dozen incidents reported by the authorities in Baghdad, Baquba and Kirkuk, three of the country’s largest cities.

In Baghdad at least five people were killed and 53 were wounded when a bomb hidden on a motorcycle exploded in a crowded marketplace in Sadr City.

Separately, attackers shot and killed the dean of Baghdad University’s economics and management college, his wife and their son at the college’s front gate, an Interior Ministry official said.

An American military patrol opened fire on guards working at a building associated with the Supreme Judiciary Council, killing four and wounding one, the ministry official said. The circumstances of the shooting remained unclear. A bomb exploded in a crowded market in the New Baghdad neighborhood, killing one and wounding 22, the official said.

In Diyala Province, gunmen opened fire on two oil tanker trucks, igniting the trucks and killing five people inside, a provincial police official reported. Other gunmen killed a judge and his son in the provincial capital of Baquba, the police official said.

An American soldier died in what was called “a noncombat-related incident” north of Baghdad on Thursday, the American military said.

It said in another statement that Iraqi security forces operating about three miles from the Iranian border had “intercepted six heavily loaded donkeys.” The donkeys were hauling 53 Soviet- and Italian-made antitank landmines and one antitank projectile, which the troops confiscated and destroyed. No humans were captured, the statement said, and the donkeys were set free.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/wo...html?ref=world

There is no doubt that where there is multiple centres of state control, there will be problems.

On the one hand, the US has to safeguard its interest and so it has to control certain sphere where its credibility and policy are at stake, while on the other hand, the Iraqis have to assert themselves since it is their country and they have to govern, having been elected through a democratic process.

The US Army has always put the safety of their soldiers first above everything and hence has even been accused to stronghandedness in this pursuit. Therefore, their doing everything to find this errant Iraqi descent US soldier is not unusual and should not be grudged.

The manhunt has angered some American troops in Iraq, who have privately complained that the military should not expend any additional resources, or put any troops at further risk, to search for a soldier who had violated military rules and exposed himself to danger by leaving his post without military protection is a bit off the standard policy.

On the other hand, this Iraqi descent trooper could have been used as a agent to find information and hence had been picked up by the Iraqi terrorists. That could be the reason why he left the Green Zone without anyone knowing, while in actuality, the handlers would have known! Any Army would have used soldiers of local descent to obtain information and so it would not be anything out of the ordinary.

10-30-2006, 23:05 PM	#32 (permalink)
leib10 HKHolic *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 02-17-05 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,247 Country:	Some the stuff you mentioned happens here all the time. Tensions are naturally high between the badly outnumbered whites and the Hispanics. Huge, mindless race fights have occurred in and out of my HS. I've seen several. The predominantly Hispanic staff is usually more sympathetic to their own kind than the whites. For instance, it's okay for a cholo to call a white kid a "gringo" or a "guero", but it's totally inappropriate for a white kid to call a cholo a "spic" or a "beaner". Invariably, anybody who says that will get his ass beat good. As a white kid I learned to just let the insults pass over me, because I couldn't win. PC's a biitch. __________________ "The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

10-30-2006, 23:12 PM	#33 (permalink)
Shek *Military Professional* Moderator Join Date: 02-23-05 Location: Krblachistan Posts: 7,780 Country:	Pedro offers you his protection. __________________ "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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10-30-2006, 23:32 PM	#36 (permalink)
leib10 HKHolic *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 02-17-05 Location: Lubbock, TX Posts: 3,247 Country:	Ach, the cholos don't have a concept of a "fair fight". Sure, I'd take on one of them, but they fight in bands of 8 or 9, and are almost always armed with clubs and chains. Hell, one guy got stabbed with a screwdriver and died. Besides, I didn't really care enough about being called names by a bunch of lowlife morons to get myself all worked up about it. I made it through just fine.

10-31-2006, 18:13 PM	#37 (permalink)
Anon New Member Join Date: 08-03-03 Posts: 0	To each his own my friend.

11-01-2006, 18:08 PM	#40 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,117 Country:	Thank heavens that in India we don't have whites or blacks. We are all browns!

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