Julie

Then indulge me.

Anon

I think it would take death in a fiery terror attack for you to get it.

But once again, in the words of the famous leftist social commentator:

"War does not determine who's right...it determines who's left"
~Bertrand Russel.

If you don't comprehend the message there, you're never going to.

GVChamp

It would take a graduate education in Middle Eastern Studies for most people to understand how important this war is. A propaganda effort by the government isn't going to help much when:

A. 1/3 of the country believes that it is "somewhat" or "very" likely that there were at least some government agents that let 9/11 happen

And

B. Certain journalists bring on uninformed commentators or twist statements to make the situation look worse than it really is

__________________
"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions but by iron and blood"-Otto Von Bismarck

Julie

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes...known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few … No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.
~James Madison, 1795.

If you don't comprehend the message there, you're never going to.

Bluesman

I think James Madison missed a crucial point, there. How are we to preserve our freedom when threatened WITHOUT warfare? Does he (and you) imagine that we would be better off NOT fighting when our freedom is threatened? Or do you imagine that the people that gave their lives to take 3,000 others don't really mean it, that they're not serious when they say they're out to kill us all?

Well? Choose, then: either we fight a threat, or we refuse to believe there is a threat, or we knuckle under to it.

CHOOSE. The rest of us have.

__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

Anon

ABSOLUTELY AGREED.

As Bush (and Gandalf) so famously stated,

"This is the great calling of our time."
~Bush 43

Anon

"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving the peace."
~ George Washington

And one of my faves...

"Diplomats are just as essential in starting a war as soldiers are in finishing it. . . . You take diplomacy out of war, and the thing would fall flat in a week."
~ Will Rogers

Anon

Actually Madison was right, but at the same time he's not saying you(we) are wrong either.

It is important to realize that he was not saying that no war should ever be fought...but rather that the one's we fight had better be worth the sometimes permanent damage they do to the republic.

And therefore i would summarize that when we do embark on these adventurs of carnage, that it's wise to embark on them with the will to win decisively.

There is no greater crime against humanity than an inneffectual war.

Bluesman

Sounds right to me.

Julie

Correct.

You guys are ignoring his words of "continual warfare."

This is where your opposition of many Americans lies.

It is not "cutting and running" or "knuckling."

It is the mere decision of expertise in having a plan to know when continual warfare begins resulting in an inneffectual war.

The main problem with Iraq is that politics have played the role in the decision-making instead of experienced veterans. It is quite obvious.

dalem

All of our wars are run by politicians, and therefore politics. If you're going to discuss the topic you should know this.

-dale

Julie

Of course politics is a deciding factor, but should only be a percentage of the issue. Strategy and planning should be just as important in any war endeavor.

Anon

Your're missing the point. "Continual warfare" is fine if it's the only way forward(for all we knew in 1941 WWII was going to be 'continual warfare', so you cannot let that cloud your decision making process).

The main problem is that there's a HUGE segment of the population that A) has NO CLUE of the scope of the fight we're in(even if you draw them a picture), B) there is a HUGE pacifistic segment of the left that feels it's 'immoral' to fight REGARDLESS, and C), there is a HUGE segment of the population that is in the "Blame america first" camp, that feels this is all 'our own fault'. That they're TOO STOOPID to see the utter irrelevance of such things just further illustrates how truly stoopid they really are.

Who's right is clearly not nearly 1% as important to us as who's left when the smoke clears.

A war like WWII would be UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE to fight in this political environment.

BTW....a war like WWII is what's coming IMO. And i've been saying it for 4 years now. LOUDLY and PUBLICALLY.

Shame no one in power has the same courage...cause most of them KNOW it just as i do.

You're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about that one miss. I don't care what anyone says.

Well politics governs the interactions of people(if two people are discussing a topic- any topic- they are exercizing politics), but that's obviously not the same as a politician running the war, which was CLEARLY the case with OIF.

Rumsfeld and his "Snowflakes" absolutely micro-AND mis-managed this campaign.

Almost everything that's gone wrong is almost directly traceable to HIM directly.

The man is a total asss-hat.