Shek

Houston Chronicle
April 17, 2006

Army's Purchase Of Body Armor Hits Snag

Manufacturer worries that vests may be tampered with before tests

By Associated Press

WASHINGTON - A dispute over testing is stalling the Army's plans to move ahead with buying a new high-tech body armor now off-limits to soldiers.

The stalemate is the latest development in a complex disagreement over the quality of the protective gear, known as Dragon Skin, that is made by Pinnacle Armor of Fresno, Calif. The fight over body armor has spread beyond the Pentagon and reverberated throughout the country as families try to buy the best protection possible for loved ones overseas.

Murray Neal, Pinnacle's chief executive officer, said Friday he will not send the Army 30 vests to test next month, as planned, unless the Army agrees to his testing requirements.

Neal said he is worried the vests may be tampered with before the ballistic tests are conducted — potentially giving the Army an excuse not to buy from Pinnacle Armor.

"I'm not going to leave it to chance that they could mess with the body armor prior to it being tested and that could cause premature failure," Neal said.

The Army says it has a contract for 30 vests and expects delivery. "The Army does not intend to make any changes to the contract that was signed," Army spokeswoman Maj. Desiree Wineland said.

The Army has said it wants to buy the best protective gear possible, including the Dragon Skin vest, if the gear passes testing. The Pinnacle contract is only for the 30 vests for testing.

Pinnacle's armor has been caught up in contradictory statements about its worthiness.

The Army last month banned soldiers from wearing it or any other armor not issued by the military. The Air Force, however, has ordered a number of the Dragon Skin vests.

According to a test-results memo obtained by the Associated Press, the armor stopped the "level three-plus" ammunition rounds for which it is rated. The armor did not do as well when more lethal ammunition was used — level four rounds the armor was not rated to stop.

Neal said there were problems with the ceramic discs used in the vests. An earlier batch of the armor with different discs had stopped the higher powered shots, he said.

Army officials said last month they banned the use of nonmilitary issued armor because of concerns about reports that soldiers' families were buying untested or inadequate armor for the troops.

__________________
"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

Triple C

From professionalsoldiers.com ran by the green hatted killers of the US Army, they emphatically reject any accusations of rigging the test. They say that 7.62x54mm will cut through the vest and oblique shots weren't getting stopped.

__________________
What benefits the body is called medicine; what benefits the soul, discipline.
-Augustine of Hippo

omon

this is all political b.s. i have seen program on tv, about dragon skin, it was shot at from mp5, ak47, m16, testers shot entire clips, from all guns at it in one time, no bullets went thru, than they put a dummy with the vest on on top of the hand granade, the west got a little messed up, but no fragments went thru. also this vest protects against eged weapons, regular kevlar vests can be cut with a sharp knife easy.
if dragon skin gets approved, the comp. that sells vests now will be out of contract, with officials payed off, dragon skin will get no go, that is why the pinnicle armor, don,t want to send any for testing,

Blademaster

Omon, if you really believe what's being shown on a show what is considered a marketer's bonanza dream, then I got a bridge in Florida to sell to you.

omon

i got 3 in nyc if you interested, i sure belive what i see more than what someone said on the forum, care to prove, what they showed is wrong?

omon

Testing

History Channel and Discovery Channel tests
In a test for the History Channel's military show, "Mail Call", the vest repelled nine rounds of pointed steel ammunition from an AK-47 and 35 rounds of 9 mm, all fired into a 10-by-12-inch configuration on the vest. In "Test Lab", also on the History Channel, the vest withstood a total of 120 rounds, fired from both an AK-47 (7.62 × 39 mm) and MP5 (9 x 19 mm). In another demonstration on the Discovery Channel series "Future Weapons", a Dragon Skin vest withstood numerous rounds from an AK-47, an MP5, and an M4 carbine (5.56 x 45 mm), and a point-blank detonation of an M67 grenade. While the vest was heavily damaged (mainly by the grenade), there was no penetration of the actual armor.


Fresno test
Fresno, CA police officers ordered it after a vest stopped all the bullets fired during a test, including .308 rounds from a sniper rifle and 30 rounds from a fully automatic MP-5 fired from 5 feet away. Ninety-eight federal, state, and local law enforcement officers witnessed the SWAT test. The armor also stopped 40 rounds of PS-M1943 mild steel core bullets from an AK-47 along with 200 9 mm FMJ military ball bullets fired from a submachine gun.[4]


December 2006 test
On December 7, 2006 a demonstrational shoot for the following departments took place on a 10" x 12" SOV-2000 Level III panel: Saint Charles Parish Sheriff's SWAT, Saint John's Parish Sheriff's SWAT, Gretna PD, Jefferson Parish Sheriff's SWAT, LaCruz Parish Sheriff's SWAT, Ascension Parish Sheriff's SWAT, Coast Guard Investigative Services, US Navy.

A total of 17 rounds was fired into the panel without penetration.


3 @ 7.62x51mm Federal Match
3 @ 7.62x39mm Military Ball
3 @ 5.56x45mm M193 Ball
3 @ 5.56x45mm M193 Ball at 45 degrees
2 @ 5.56x45mm M855 Green Tip
2 @ 5.56x45mm Bonded M193
1 @ 7.62x51mm Federal Bonded

Testing by Dr. Gary Roberts
Pinnacle Dragon Skin SOV-2000 level III armor was also tested[5] the week of October 2, 2006 by Dr. Gary Roberts, LTCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center. These tests were conducted for a local law enforcement agency, as a control sample a stand-alone Armored Mobility Incorporated (AMI) level III steel composite plate armor was used for comparison. Both types of armor were conditioned for 12 hours at 170 degrees F, then moved to ambient air for approximately 90 min prior to being shot. The problems associated with the use of inelastic clay backing material have been well documented; as such, the armor was secured to a life-size curvilinear torso replica made of Perma-Gel. Each armor system was shot a minimum of 20 times with five shots of each ammunition type fired against each armor system--one 90 degree perpendicular shot, two shots at 60 degrees obliquity, and two shots at 30 degrees obliquity, using each of the following loads fired at a distance of 10 feet:

5.56 mm 40 gr LeMas Urban Warfare (using a moly coated Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet) with a 3718 f/s average velocity.
5.56 mm M855 62 gr FMJ with a 3054 f/s average velocity.
7.62x39 mm M43 123 gr steel-core FMJ with a 2307 f/s average velocity.
.30-06 M2 150 gr FMJ with a 2736 f/s average velocity.
All of the above ammo was successfully stopped by both armor systems in this testing, with no armor failures or penetrations, even after receiving multiple hits.

AMI level III plates are fabricated using an outer 3 mm MARS steel layer bonded to a compressed Dyneema backing, with a linex coating for spall reduction, resulting in a total plate thickness of approximately 1”. AMI level III 12” x 14.5” plates weigh about 10 lbs and 10” x 12” plates are about 9 lbs.

Pinnacle SOV-2000 level III armor is made of overlapping approximately 0.25” x 2” ceramic discs encased in a fabric cover. In evaluating the Dragon Skin system, it is important to note that while the external measurements of the Dragon Skin panel are 11.5” x 13.5”, the area of level III coverage provided by the encased ceramic discs is 10” x 12”; the fabric edges are NOT intended to provide ballistic protection. Weight of the Pinnacle SOV-2000 Dragon Skin armor providing 10 x 12 inches of level III protection was approximately 5.5 lbs.

looks like it was tested enough allready, looks good if you ask me, so is it inadequate armor performance or politics, that stop it from using in us army??

omon

the only thing it wasn,t tested against is 50bmg, can you name at least 1 vest that stops .50bmg?? i can,t.

Bluesman

My wife and I are researching this issue right now. We saw the show, we've been talking to my buddies in SOCOM (including one of the procurement folks, which will get him/her in deep trouble if anybody finds out exactly who), and we're reading everything posted on the 'Net (with seriously jaundiced eyes and radar up for the high 'BS' factor).

My son is getting the very best armor money can buy, and if it's not issued to him, me and his mammy are going to sell one of our cars if that's what it takes to get top-of-the-line.

Dragonskin, Interceptor, or some esoteric, high-end thang nobody's ever heard of...whatever it ends up being, Private Blueskid is going to be patrolling in it, sleeping in it, showering in it, and he's going to tell NObody he's got it (lest his squad leader put him on point or as #1 through the door all the time, because my boy's got the super-duper elven mithrail mail), for whatever length of time he's in the AoR.

__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell

Blademaster

Bluesman;

Check this thread out for an in depth discussion on Dragonskin Armor:
Dragon Skin - Another Sparky/Gavin ? - Tanknet

leib10

I've seen the Dragon Skin armor. It looks like a sound design. But how well does it protect against trauma?

__________________
"The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world. So wake up, Mr. Freeman. Wake up and smell the ashes." G-Man

omon

russia had a similar designed vest, they used titanium discs, it was better than regular kevlar, but was much more expenscive, kevlar will not protect you from knife or spear, even powerfull crossbow with razor tiped arrow will go thru kevlar, so will knife, but in combat this edge weapon protection, is seldom needed if ever, plus ds costs more,
i,d like to see how new concept of fluid armor works,
as for blunt trauma, i think kevlar absorbs evergy better than ceramik disks, may be absorbing liner will do the trick.

Triple C

According to professionalsoldiers.com, a forum ran by former special forces operators, SCOM rejected the vest because it cannot stop oblique shots and does not hold up to 7.62x54mm (R) bullets, which is common in Russian medium machine guns.

RustyBattleship

Yes. A company in Southern California is working on it. But it is still too heavy to consider as regular issue though I was very impressed by the test sample they showed me. Besides, the sheet heads in Iraq don't use the .50 caliber (even if they captured any) because they are too heavy and unwieldy for their type of hit and run fighting.

No, I cannot tell you the name of the company for obvious security reasons.

__________________
Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

leib10

Not to mention the Dragunov and Al Kadesiah sniper rifles commonly found in Iraq.

Bluesman

Got my answer:

Interceptor is currently the best you can get, literally better than even the exotics and foreign-made.

A gorget is part of the product, but the reason you don't see many in use is because tests have shown any plate that isn't against another solid surface (like the trunk of the body) will spall and won't stop the round. Because the gorget stands away from the neck, local commanders usually order them discarded.

On the other hand, the optional under-arm plates are NOT usually issued (unless special operators use 'em in certain circumstances), but make a dam' handy add-on.

PV2 Blueskid is getting a set of THOSE.