Praxus

400 Deaths in over a year is not to impressive exspecially considering 170 or so of them are non-combat deaths. This is about 1/150th of WW2 American Deaths(In one year), 1/16th of Vietnam(In one year).

I would hardly call this "kicking american ass".

They are not harrasing our supply lines in the desert like any compotent military "guerilla" force would do. By any definition these guerillas are PATHETIC.

However we do need to stop worrying about everyone's feelings and start having Mullahs "accidently" turn up dead and anyone else who is inciting this violance.

Ray

I dont think anyone wants the US opinion to cave in. The mess that has occured has to be cleared and there is no second opinion on that.

However, what is worth noting is that most countries feel that the US should singlehandedly clear the mess now that the Rubicon has been crossed. There are reasons for this viewpoint. One, it will cost the US heavily in terms of money and manpower. It will have its effect on US politics and the feel good feeling. The sluggish economy would 'allow' other western economies to catch up or at least close the gap to some extent and thus enhance the political power of such economies. Many want the US to realise that one should not embark on a war without planning for the future. Indeed, one never doubted the outcome of a war in which the US joins, but I reckon many are gleefully watching from the sidelines that the US administration did not foresee the terrorist actions that would follow.

I do not buy the theory that these are mere terrorist actions by a rag tag lot. The meticulous planning in organising such terrorist 'hits' in a hostile environment [and where huge financial rewards are given in a country which has been reduced to abject poverty and unemployment], belies the contention to the contrary. Posters who have not terrorists in action [forget the WTC - its a one time action] day in an day out would not realise the import of their actions. Even the WTC action, horrendous that it was, indicates meticulous planning and organisation. As Bush said - don't mis-underestimate these terrorists. They are professional vermins and like maggots they keep on multiplying.

Notwithstanding which side of the fence countries may be, none likes the unnecessary waste of human lives, especially now, since the causus belli has been served.

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"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

PiggyWiggy

maybe me and squirter are just talking out of our ass'

or maybe, we know something.

Same happened to our soviet union, it went in afghanistan, took it over, but the rebels ended up killing 15,000 people.

hey...if u think 15,000 american boys for iraq is worth it, HAIL BUSH!

but, i seem to care about life...

Praxus

And we have had less then 100 Combat Casulties in Afghanistan and it has been 2 years.

But you support 2 of the most disgusting ideologys every to touch the face of this earth. One of which has killed (at the smallest ammount you could possible estimate) 50 million people.

Oh and by the way at the current rate it would take 32 years to have 15,000 dead. It isn't likely to get to much worst then it is now.


What meticulus planning????????

Firing a couple RPG's and Machine Guns and setting off a few road side bombs(most of which get dealed with before detonation) doesn't exactly take an Erwin Rummel type character to orginize.

A few of the attacks are well thought out but at least 95% of them aren't, and the ones that are, are most likely by Al Quadia.

What we need to do to win this war is not just to kill terrorist but to destroy the ideaolgy which they support. In other words we need to take out Saudia Arabia and Iranian Governments and FORCE upon them Western Culture.

Ray

What meticulus planning????????
Firing a couple RPG's and Machine Guns and setting off a few road side bombs(most of which get dealed with before detonation) doesn't exactly take an Erwin Rummel type character to orginize.
A few of the attacks are well thought out but at least 95% of them aren't, and the ones that are, are most likely by Al Quadia.
What we need to do to win this war is not just to kill terrorist but to destroy the ideaolgy which they support. In other words we need to take out Saudia Arabia and Iranian Governments and FORCE upon them Western Culture.

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And how are we to do that? Jump into Saudi Arabia and Iraq and get stuck as in Iraq.......and then find another bogeyman to chase around?

One would not go on secret midnight calls [Bush's visit] to visit troops if all was well and these coots were not meticulous in their work or so lunactic in their aim. Notwithstanding, it was the very good gesture on the part of Bush and as a military man I am very appreciative of this excellent gesture. I salute the gesture, even though I am not a US citizen or in the US Army.

Officer of Engineers

Only because the American footprint (and control) in Afghanistan is extremely small. The American casualty ratio actually exceeded that of the Soviets during the same time period. The Americans do not control Afghanistan.

Only if you're counting American casualties. Iraqi casualties would exceed that in a very short time. The problem that you don't see is that the Americans are doing nothing about Iraqi against Iraqi actions. Pretty soon, ordinary Iraqis are going to wonder why they need the Americans if they're not going to protect them.

At 30 to 40 attacks per day with defined AOs and obviously some sort of knowledge on how to set up booby traps and at least observe patrol routes and schedules, you've far under-estimated the enemy.

You've ever heard of the expression, the conquered conquor the conquorer? That every invader of China and Persia turned Chinese and Persian in culture? There are far too many of them and far too few of you.

As I stated the only time inferior numbers dominate superior numbers in every way including culture is genocide.

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Chimo

Praxus

We have something like 50,000 troops all over Bagdagh it isn't exactly hard to find them and chances are they are gonna be traveling down the majority of the roads and it's a good bet that most of these roadside bombs are on major roads well traveled by US. You are giving them WAY to much credit.

What they are doing is Terrorism, nothing more. They are achieving zero military goals except for trying to upset American people about casulties.

What about Hong Kong, the British did not outnumber them yet they accepted western culture(all be it most of Hong Kongers came after British Rule started, you still get my idea)?

What about Japan, Germany, and Italy we never commited Genocide and never outnumbered them on their homeland?

Gimme the numbers to prove it is larger?

Officer of Engineers

You're missing the point here. Of course, they're going to exploit whatever the Americans are going to give them, including the free shot.

The point is that these guys can observe, can plan, can stock and most importantly, can think. They just can't execute - yet. Given time, that will change. You will see their attacks become more and more successful and more and more bolder once their execution gets more and more experienced. They're doing the small stuff now because they don't have the competence nor the confidence to do anything bigger. Given time, that will change.

Hong Kong is Chinese to the core and the newly appointed Governing Council imposed by ** was accepted without a fuss. The only thing I will give the British for is the adhearance to the Law and that's where Hong Kong is different from the rest of China. The Law is supreme and no one is above the Law, not even the Chairman of the CCP.

However, whoever decides the Law was never part of HK's culture, even under the British. London, not Hong Kong, decided Hong Kong's laws. Made very little difference now that ** makes the laws instead of HK.

Germany and Italy were Western to begin with. They both had their histories with democratic ideals. Hitler and Mussolini were elected before they became dictators.

And genocide was carried out on Japan by the Americans. Five cities burned to the ground, two were nuked and no quarters asked nor given in Saipan and Okinawa. The American march to Japan matched in horror and exceeded the scope anything the Mongols did.

Officer of Engineers

Soviet KIA of the 79-81 period - 597

Source: Lieutenant-Colonel Lester Grau, USArmy, Lessons Learned in the Soviet Afghan War, 1995.

This out of a force of 114,000. The American committement is currently 5500.

s_qwert63

damn...
Afghanistan in at least a month?
We captured Afghanistan in 4 days.
Beat ya to it!

Praxus

OE your to smart for me

Ray

Colonel,

As the British say - Spot on!

Lunatock

Correction. You captured the cities in four days. And found yourselves in a meat grinder for the next ten years.

Afghanistan for the Soviets, was one big first attempt at taking Grozny. Metaphorically speaking.

Afghan cities had a lot of mountains & caves around them. And there was never any effort to bring the fight to the Rebels. Just live it up in Kandahar, and start bringing in supply convoys.

Then there was Grozny.
Roll in the tanks. And watch the confusion start when the Nokche Bores start rocketing the Tanks from rooftops, and hitting them from one side at ground level.

Then using Soviet made tunnels under the city to dissapear, and hit them from the other side.

Leader

Yeah

I doubt it.

Were is you proof that that will happen here? Besides, of course that it would help you politically.

A stable and democratic Iraq is worth way more then that. You would one of those who said "Is it really worth 500,000 lives to defeat Germany and Japan?" Well it was. Your failed ideology is best left is the coffins of history.

Caring about life means not taking the short-term view. Will more American soldiers die in the next year because we invaded Iraq? Yes. Will more Americans die in the next ten years because we invaded Iraq? No, in fact less will.

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PiggyWiggy

you know what americans.

you are too friggin statistical, you know that the war aint gonna end until more people die.

i dont need proof, my proof is that history repeats itself.

anyways...you obviously dont know anything about the world, hell, i bet you dont know squat about the middle east, and their customs...right?

of course not...do you have any middle eastern friends?