Shek

All,
A very good read on the situation in Mosul - however, the link turns into a pumpkin in the next 2-3 days, so read it now.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/20060...kRjV0JQcALk%3D

__________________
"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

dave angel

Shek,

i liked the article and its acceptance of the realities of success in Iraq, but it - another discussion that occured recently regarding a US unit that 'lived' amongst the iraqi population - made me ask if the the only units that are being successful in counter-insurgency are the ones that are implimenting their own policy, rather than following the standard policy of "dominate the environment by driving around for a few hours, then go back to base, come out next day and be surprised that the insurgency has melted back as fast as it melted away".

i realise that its a bit sensitive to suggest that in effect high-level policy is being binned by officers on the ground who think for themselves, but could you give an indication as to whether you think this is true?

__________________
before criticizing someone, walk a mile in their shoes.................... then when you do criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.

Shek

Dave,

I believe the example you are referring to is Tall Afar, which is an order of magnitude smaller than Mosul. So, I think that this size differential helps drive a different approach as well as the fact that you've got different brigade commanders, which will also result in a slightly different approach. However, I don't think that there is tension per se between "official" policy and what is happening on the ground, as there is quite a bit of maneuver room for subordinate commanders - sometimes this is good and other times it is bad. I got to see it within my own battalion and the difference between my company and another.

I'll write more about this on another day - I've got a midterm tomorrow and a major computer assignment that I've got to finish up today.

Shek

Here's a link to an accompanying interview.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200603u/kaplan-interview

I found the following question to be particularly striking:

Bluesman

I read every word of this before I came in to work today.

And I agree that what the Iraqis have GOT to see from us is determination to win through. Otherwise, there is every reason to support the guys that WILL be here when it's all over: the Bad Guys.

No family man can be expected to help us and then fend for himself when we Murtha out on him, and the moodje comes a-knockin' at his door. Everybody that has helped us - every police cadet, every army recruit, every newly-elected city councilman, EVERY SINGLE VOTER has bet their lives and the lives of their families and even their tribes on us being faithful to our word to not abandon them, like Dubya's daddy did when he encouraged the Shiite and Marsh Arab rebellion...and then watched while they were butchered. (We're STILL paying for THAT mistake.)

If you want to pull out of Iraq before they're ready to defend themselves, then I accuse you of abetting mass murder. Because that's what will happen if, as Osama has decreed, AMZ becomes the Emir of Iraq.

This thing turns around when the Iraqis are no longer in doubt that Murtha and Kennedy and Pelosi and the Defeaticrats cannot snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. When the Iraqis are no longer terrified of the terrorists, they'll get on the winning side, and the terrorists will no longer be able to hide amongst a people too scared to rat 'em out. When the tip lines are no longer the only way decent people will talk to Iraqi cops and American troops, but will walk right up and tell the Guy In Charge about the dodgy characters in that house over there with Syrian accents, THEN we will have won.

But that won't happen if our troops are 'strategically redeployed', as Murtha euphemises his plans for retreat. Iraqis are canny consumers of news, and they know we've got lots of people nervously eyeing the exits. As long as they perceive that we want to run away as fast as possible from this, they'll NEVER board our sinking ship.

But if we can convince 'em that we mean to WIN, they'll respect us, and they'll help us. And then we WILL have won.

__________________
"The quickest way of ending a war is to lose it, and if one finds the prospect of a long war intolerable, it is natural to disbelieve in the possibility of victory."
- George Orwell