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Thread: Chinese proliferation in doubt

  1. #1
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    Chinese proliferation in doubt

    I've cited these two authors as the basis for China testing a CICH-4 device for Pakistan in 1992.

    Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: The Nuclear Express: A Political History of the Bomb and Its Proliferation

    However, reading through the other reviews of this book

    Why China Helped Countries Like Pakistan, North Korea Build Nuclear Bombs - US News and World Report

    I have concerns that they've just took reported rumours to be fact

    ie
    The Soviets got their thermonukes from an American spy.
    The French gave the Israelis their nukes.
    The Israelis got access to American nuclear weapons data.
    The Chinese tested French nuclear devices for them.
    The Israelis tested a South African device.

    And that is on top of the Chinese test for Pakistan that we all know that China denied. Can we ask someone to review this data?
    Chimo

  2. #2
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    One question.

    When China gave the bomb to Pakistan, it would have been a good answer from India to give the bomb to Taiwan?

    May be if India (or other country) would warned China with that, Pakistan were not now a nuclear power... and may be China wouldn´t helped countries like Pakistan, North Korea (and partially Algeria, Saudi Arabia) build nuclear bombs, as Thomas Reed says.

    (Sorry for my poor english)

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    Taiwan was under the US nuclear umbrella and for intents and purposes, still is since the Mainland has no intention of using nukes.
    Chimo

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    It is all bullcrap as far as Pakistan is concerned.
    To really know the history and evolution of our nuke programme OOE, I sugest visiting Pakdef.infos' forums. A lot of the myths surrounding the programme are dissected there.

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    The Chinese proliferation to Pakistan is real. Lybia has given both of you up.

    washingtonpost.com
    Libyan Arms Designs Traced Back to China
    Pakistanis Resold Chinese-Provided Plans

    By Joby Warrick and Peter Slevin
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Sunday, February 15, 2004; Page A01

    Investigators have discovered that the nuclear weapons designs obtained by Libya through a Pakistani smuggling network originated in China, exposing yet another link in a chain of proliferation that stretched across the Middle East and Asia, according to government officials and arms experts.

    The bomb designs and other papers turned over by Libya have yielded dramatic evidence of China's long-suspected role in transferring nuclear know-how to Pakistan in the early 1980s, they said. The Chinese designs were later resold to Libya by a Pakistani-led trading network that is now the focus of an expanding international probe, added the officials and experts, who are based in the United States and Europe.

    The packet of documents, some of which included text in Chinese, contained detailed, step-by-step instructions for assembling an implosion-type nuclear bomb that could fit atop a large ballistic missile. They also included technical instructions for manufacturing components for the device, the officials and experts said.

    "It was just what you'd have on the factory floor. It tells you what torque to use on the bolts and what glue to use on the parts," one weapons expert who had reviewed the blueprints said in an interview. He described the designs as "very, very old" but "very well engineered."

    U.S. intelligence officials concluded years ago that China provided early assistance to Pakistan in building its first nuclear weapon -- assistance that appeared to have ended in the 1980s. Still, weapons experts familiar with the blueprints expressed surprise at what they described as a wholesale transfer of sensitive nuclear technology to another country. Notes included in the package of documents suggest that China continued to mentor Pakistani scientists on the finer points of bomb-building over a period of several years, the officials said.

    China's actions "were irresponsible and short-sighted, and raise questions about what else China provided to Pakistan's nuclear program," said David Albright, a nuclear physicist and former U.N. weapons inspector in Iraq. "These documents also raise questions about whether Iran, North Korea and perhaps others received these documents from Pakistanis or their agents."

    The package of documents was turned over to U.S. officials in November following Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi's decision to renounce weapons of mass destruction and open his country's weapons laboratories to international inspection. The blueprints, which were flown to Washington last month, have been analyzed by experts from the United States, Britain and the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. nuclear watchdog.

    Weapons experts in Libya also found large amounts of equipment used in making enriched uranium, the essential ingredient in nuclear weapons. That discovery helped expose a rogue nuclear trading network that officials say funneled technology and parts to Libya as well as Iran and North Korea. A central figure in the network, Pakistani metallurgist Abdul Qadeer Khan, acknowledged in a televised confession last month that he had passed nuclear secrets to others. Pakistan's president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, then pardoned Khan.

    Of the many proliferation activities linked to Khan's network, the selling of weapon designs is viewed as the most serious. The documents found in Libya contained most of the information needed to assemble a bomb, assuming the builder could acquire the plutonium or highly enriched uranium needed for a nuclear explosion, according to U.S. and European weapons experts familiar with the blueprints. At the same time, one of the chief difficulties for countries trying to build nuclear weapons has been obtaining the plutonium or uranium.

    Libya appeared to have made minimal progress toward building a weapon, and had no missile in its arsenal capable of carrying the 1,000-pound nuclear device depicted in the drawings, the officials said. However, weapons experts noted, the blueprints would have been far more valuable to the other known customers of Khan's network.

    "This design would be highly useful to countries such as Iran and North Korea," said Albright, whose Washington-based Institute for Science and International Security has studied the nonconventional weapons programs of both states. The design "appears deliverable by North Korea's Nodong missile, Iran's Shahab-3 missile and ballistic missiles Iraq was pursuing just prior to the 1991 Persian Gulf War," he said.

    Such a relatively simple design also might be coveted by terrorist groups who seek nuclear weapons but lack the technical sophistication or infrastructure to build a modern weapon, said one Europe-based weapons expert familiar with the blueprints. While such a bomb would be difficult to deliver by air, "you could drive it away in a pickup truck," the expert said.

    The device depicted in the blueprints appears similar to a weapon known to have been tested by China in the 1960s, officials familiar with the documents said. Although of an older design, the bomb is an implosion device that is smaller and more sophisticated than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the end of World War II. Implosion bombs use precision-timed conventional explosives to squeeze a sphere of fissile material and trigger a nuclear chain reaction.

    Pakistan's first nuclear test in 1998 involved a more modern design than the one sold to Libya. Albright said the Libyan documents "do not appear to contain any information about the nuclear weapons Pakistan has built."

    The documents at the center of the investigation were handed over to IAEA inspectors in two white plastic shopping bags from a Pakistani clothing shop. The shop's name -- Good Looks Tailor -- and Islamabad address were printed on the bags in red letters. One of the bags contained drawings and blueprints of different sizes; the other contained a stack of instructions on how to build not only a bomb but also its essential components.

    The documents themselves seemed a hodgepodge -- some in good condition, others smudged and dirty; some professionally printed, others handwritten. Many of the papers were "copies of copies of copies," said one person familiar with them. The primary documents were entirely in English, while a few ancillary papers contained Chinese text. The package also included open-literature articles on nuclear weapons from U.S. weapons laboratories, officials familiar with the documents said.

    Strikingly, although most of the essential design elements were included, a few key parts were missing, the officials and experts said. Some investigators have speculated that the missing papers could have been lost, or hadn't yet been provided -- possibly they were being withheld pending additional payments. Others suggested that the drawings were simply thrown in as a bonus with the purchase of uranium-enrichment equipment -- "the cherry on the sundae," one knowledgeable official said.

    Libyan scientists interviewed by international inspectors about the designs said they had not seriously studied them and were unaware that anything was missing. As Libya had no suitable missile or delivery system for a nuclear weapon, the scientists might have decided to delay work on bomb designs until other parts of their weapons program were further advanced, one knowledgeable U.S. official said.

    U.S. and European investigators said there were many similarities among the other nuclear-related designs and components found in Libya and Iran, suggesting they were provided by the same network.

    As for who delivered the material to the Libyans, a European official who has studied the question said the connection to the Khan network was indirect. "The middleman is quite invisible. The middleman has covered his tracks very well."

    The evidence of China's transfer of nuclear plans to Pakistan confirms something that U.S. officials have believed since at least the early 1980s. A declassified State Department report on Pakistan's nuclear program written in 1983 concluded that China had "provided assistance" to Pakistan's bomb-making program. "We now believe cooperation has taken place in the area of fissile material production and possibly nuclear device design," the report said.

    While the discovery of direct evidence of such cooperation was disturbing, it was noteworthy that China's views on proliferation have changed dramatically since the 1980s, and its leaders now generally cooperate with the United States and other countries in stopping the leaking of sensitive weapons technology, said Jonathan Wolfsthal, a nonproliferation expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

    "Did the Chinese make a huge mistake in sharing technology with Pakistan? Sure. Did we make a mistake by looking the other way in the 1980s when Pakistan was developing the bomb? Yes," Wolfsthal said. "But none of that should get in the way of dealing with the real threats we face today. Our priority must be to drain the swamp created by the action of these nuclear suppliers and businessmen over the past 10 years."

    Researcher Lucy Shackelford contributed to this report.

    © 2004 The Washington Post Company
    Chimo

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    This is the bull I mentioned.
    Any body associated with and in the know about our nuke programme will laugh at this article.
    Shake off your biases and go through the nuke section of that forum.
    My coroborating source for whats posted there is my fiance's father, who is a nuc physicist himself and has been involved in the programme. The posts would also reveal how reviled AQ Khan is in our nuke community, what his actual stature is/ was, ''his'' chinese connection, and how he conned Libya in his personal capacity.
    It plus a lot more is there, you just need to trawl through the threads.

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    What bull? Do you mean to tell me that AQ Khan never got a copy of a CHIC-4 blueprint? The Chinese gave a civilian with no connection to the government of Pakistan a blueprint of a nuke?
    Chimo

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    Went through your link. The proliferation is true. AQ Khan, in his capacity as a Pakistani Government agent, sought and got a blueprint from China. Whether Pakistan used that blueprint or not is not the point. The point is that Pakistan got a blueprint from China. That is without a doubt fact.
    Chimo

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    He did, but the whole development was going on seperately under other people. AQ was/ is a limelight hogger.
    He got that design on his own initiative from the PRC. He had free reign on his ops and any action of his was presumably backed by the GOP in the eyes of others, whereas he would be acting on his personal initiative without any accountability. He is very vindictive and would go to any length to discredit the other project teams, resorting to btb attacks at times on the person of other prominent scientists.
    The acquisition of the CHIC4 design was his way of one upping the actual design team who had worked on a new bomb design from scratch on their own. China was 'never' asked for help by those guys.
    The bull, to me is when you extrapolate that self aggrandising jerk's actions to the whole Pak nuke programme, white washing the efforts of the guys who worked without any outside help for years to bring the whole thing to fruition, without making an effort to see our side of the picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    One question. When China gave the bomb to Pakistan, it would have been a good answer from India to give the bomb to Taiwan? May be if India (or other country) would warned China with that, Pakistan were not now a nuclear power... and may be China wouldn´t helped countries like Pakistan, North Korea (and partially Algeria, Saudi Arabia) build nuclear bombs, as Thomas Reed says.
    No can do: India has never considered Taiwan as a viable proxy vis-a-vis China.

    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Taiwan was under the US nuclear umbrella and for intents and purposes, still is since the Mainland has no intention of using nukes.
    Umm... didn't Taiwan have a covert project of its own going on with Israel and South Africa (and maybe Brazil)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by umairch View Post
    The acquisition of the CHIC4 design was his way of one upping the actual design team who had worked on a new bomb design from scratch on their own. China was 'never' asked for help by those guys.
    Oh yeah, they did. If not warhead specification, then the nuclear plants and the fuel to make the fissible materials. And the Washington Post piece doesn't show it but the list of documents included a lecture attendee lists and they show your bomb making group as in attendence. At the very least, the Chinese gave your group the theoritical background or encouragement to proceed.

    I am well aware of the two groups and how they view each other. From what I can gathered, the blueprints found in Geneva were modified CHIC-4s, twice the yield, half the size. Pakistan has stated that AQ Khan had no access to real bomb designs but those found in Geneva were pretty detailed. So, either AQ Khan is a pretty good bombmaker himself or somehow, he got hold of those plans (maybe even stole them) from someone who knew their stuff.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe View Post
    One question.

    When China gave the bomb to Pakistan, it would have been a good answer from India to give the bomb to Taiwan?

    May be if India (or other country) would warned China with that, Pakistan were not now a nuclear power... and may be China wouldn´t helped countries like Pakistan, North Korea (and partially Algeria, Saudi Arabia) build nuclear bombs, as Thomas Reed says.

    (Sorry for my poor english)
    I believe India started the weaponisation programme(the ones which were tested in 98) in early 90's. This might be related to the 92 Chinese test as pointed out by OEE.

    Hence I dont believe India had a "useful & tested compact" warhead design which it could have passed on to Taiwan.

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    Thanks for the answers.

    But why India didn't use Taiwan as a negotiation card??

    Something like "if you give the bomb to Pakistan, and other conventional weapons (ships, JF17,...), we are going to give the bomb to Taiwan and/or conventional weapons", and i think that an India-Taiwan cooperation in fighters may be worth to India, because Tejas is not so good and Taiwan has more experience.

    But the point here is that China gave Pakistan (the most dangerous enemy of India) a lot of powerful weapons and militar-industrial cooperation, and India did nothing against China interests...

    Im not a professional "thinktanker", but that point surprises me.

  14. #14
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    Taiwan don't like India.
    Chimo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers View Post
    Taiwan don't like India.
    They don't have to. In the world of geopolitics and power games democracies like the aforementioned two countries could come together and achieve common national security-related goals and interests.

    If not India - Taiwan, what about India - Japan forming an alliance? I think that is just as unlikely though. But correct me if I'm wrong the Indian and Japanese navies have interacted with each other in naval exercises in the Indian Ocean and the Pacific with other democratic countries, so they can take it from there.

    India needs to do something about China's continued encirclement and provocation. But the Indian establishment is too pacifist and passive that I've lost all hope in them.

    India’s biggest trump card over China is democracy, and they need to use that card.

    Sorry for straying off topic.

    Thanks,
    Nebula82.
    Last edited by nebula82; 01 Sep 09, at 15:13.

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