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Thread: Huntington v. Fukuyama

  1. #16
    Patron Proyas's Avatar
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    I don't think either Fukuyama or Huntington is completely right. The end of the Cold War showed more than anything that economic prosperity and an absence of totalitarianism (do not equate this with the presence of liberal democracy) are key to regime legitimacy, and the system that produces the strongest economy is capitalist. Of course, capitalism has different flavors, ranging from laissez-faire to state-directed, and in different circumstances, different variants are optimal. Nevertheless, in one important sense, mainstream humanity has "pared down" the number of economic and political options, which to some degree reduces the potential for ideological conflict and hence war.

    Given other conditions such as good world leadership, economic growth, manageable rates of resource depletion, and the timely arrival of better technologies that will allow for more efficient use of existing resources, I think Fukuyama's vision of the world heading towards shared prosperity under liberally democratic and capitalistic nations will come to pass in the long run.

    I think Huntington's view grossly exaggerates the threat of intercultural warfare, and the surge of Islamic fundamentalism cannot be taken as confirmation of his thesis. Islamism (or any religious-based sociopolitical ideology) is not a viable competitor to Western systems in the long-run. Conflict between China and the U.S. is a real possibility, though I wouldn't consider it through an "Asian vs. European" cultural lens, but rather as due to issues of national pride and competition for resources, markets and territorial control.

  2. #17
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castellano View Post
    I haven't read either. However, your critic assumes that "Islamic" civilization(s) are defined by a literal sets of beliefs, and thus, Shia is fundamentally different from Sunni or the any other of the branches. It might be true though, that for long term historical purposes, what they share is more fundamental than the differences. And there is always the possibility of further identifications that occur not only in a religious level. Thus, it wouldn't be inadequate to talk of an identity (relative similarities inside, relative dissimilarities outside) that can be referred to as Civilization, in singular
    In some respects I think it's easier for two peoples who have nothing in common to get on better than two who have a hair of difference. For those with a wide difference, it's easy to say, "you have your beliefs, I have mine." For Sunnis and Shi'ites they know exactly what their differences are and it's about something that a religiously observant Sunni or Shi'ite care deeply about. I think for the fundamentalist among them, it is worse for one to be a heretic than an infidel.

  3. #18
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Given other conditions such as good world leadership, economic growth, manageable rates of resource depletion, and the timely arrival of better technologies that will allow for more efficient use of existing resources, I think Fukuyama's vision of the world heading towards shared prosperity under liberally democratic and capitalistic nations will come to pass in the long run.

    I think Huntington's view grossly exaggerates the threat of intercultural warfare, and the surge of Islamic fundamentalism cannot be taken as confirmation of his thesis. Islamism (or any religious-based sociopolitical ideology) is not a viable competitor to Western systems in the long-run.
    The Muslims have a concept of democracy, which they term shura. I believe the Egyptian parliament is called the Shura Council. The religious basis of shura is the consultation (or consensus) among Arab tribesman to elect a tribal leader, the first few caliphs, and so on, and what their prophet Mohammed said about "my community shall not agree upon an error." At least in Sunni Islam anyways. My understanding is that Shi'a Islam holds that the proper method is designation, but until the return of the hidden Imam it reverts to consensus.

    If democracy is to ultimately succeed in Muslim countries, it is going to be developed from the customs they have using their own terminology.

  4. #19
    Patron Proyas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironduke View Post
    The Muslims have a concept of democracy, which they term shura. I believe the Egyptian parliament is called the Shura Council. The religious basis of shura is the consultation (or consensus) among Arab tribesman to elect a tribal leader, the first few caliphs, and so on, and what their prophet Mohammed said about "my community shall not agree upon an error." At least in Sunni Islam anyways. My understanding is that Shi'a Islam holds that the proper method is designation, but until the return of the hidden Imam it reverts to consensus.

    If democracy is to ultimately succeed in Muslim countries, it is going to be developed from the customs they have using their own terminology.
    Agreed.

  5. #20
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    RIP. Some of his works were controversial, but he was one of the pre-eminent political scientists of our time.
    Samuel Huntington, Harvard Political Scientist, Dies
    By Dan Hart

    Dec. 27 (Bloomberg) -- Samuel Huntington, a Harvard University professor who argued that cultural and religious differences would replace ideology as a source of international conflict, died at the age of 81 after a long illness.

    Huntington died Dec. 24 on Martha’s Vineyard, Massachusetts, where he had vacationed for 40 years, said Corydon Ireland, a spokesman for Harvard University. The cause was congestive heart failure and complications from diabetes, Ireland said. The Weatherhead Center for International Affairs, once headed by Huntington, said he died in a nursing home.

    Huntington was known for his view, first published in the journal Foreign Affairs in 1993, that the post-Cold War world would be divided among seven or eight cultural “civilizations,” including the West, Latin American, Islam and Hinduism.

    His views were later published in a 1996 book, “The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order.” It was translated into 39 languages, said Harvard, based in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

    During his lifetime, he was the author, co-author, or editor of 17 books and more than 90 articles, the university said.

    National Security Council

    Huntington was born April 18, 1927, in New York City. He graduated from Yale College at 18, and taught at Harvard from 1949 until 2007. He was the Albert J. Weatherhead III University Professor at Harvard, chaired the Government Department twice and was director of the university’s Weatherhead Center between 1978 and 1989.

    He also led the Harvard Academy for International and Area Studies from 1996 to 2004. He served as coordinator for security planning between 1977 and 1978 in President Jimmy Carter’s National Security Council.

    Huntington is survived by his wife, Nancy, two sons and four grandchildren.

    A private service will be held on Martha’s Vineyard. A memorial service is being planned for early next year at Harvard.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...Qv4&refer=home

  6. #21
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    RIP. Some of his works were controversial, but he was one of the pre-eminent political scientists of our time.
    As I stated before, I was introduced to Huntington's work from folks using his "The Soldier and the State" to explain PLA's relation with the State.



    more from Boston Globe





    Samuel Huntington, author, Harvard political scientist; at 81
    Samuel Huntington was the author of ''The Soldier and the State: the Theory and Politics of Civil-Military Relations.'' Samuel Huntington was the author of ''The Soldier and the State: the Theory and Politics of Civil-Military Relations.''
    By Adam J.V. Sell


    Dr. Samuel Huntington's first book, "The Soldier and the State: the Theory and Politics of Civil-Military Relations," was such an influential book that it merited a 50th anniversary symposium at West Point last year, but when it was first published in 1957, reviewers weren't so kind.


    "The first review he got, the reviewer compared him to Mussolini - and unfavorably," said James Perry, a former graduate student of Dr. Huntington's. The book endorsed the role of civilian authority over military institutions, and was inspired by President Truman's firing of General Douglas MacArthur, the popular Army leader who disagreed with Truman's handling of China's entry into the Korean War in 1951.

    "He tended to have views that were unconventional and remarkably prescient. He would have a finger on the pulse of where events were headed," Perry added.

    One of the nation's preeminent political scientists, a longstanding professor at Harvard University, and founder of the influential journal Foreign Policy, Dr. Huntington died Wednesday at an Oak Bluffs nursing home. He was 81.

    "He was a man of enormous influence," said his longtime friend and colleague, Henry Rosovsky. "I think he was one of the really great figures in the field."

    A specialist in many areas, particularly national security and military-civilian affairs, Dr. Huntington worked in the Carter White House as coordinator of security planning for the National Security Council from 1977-1978. Later, he was a member of the Presidential Commission on Long-Term Integrated Strategy in the 1980s.

    He was also active in Democratic politics, and met his wife, Nancy, during the presidential campaign of Adlai Stevenson in 1956. He was a speechwriter for Stevenson, and they met while working on a speech together that the candidate later used during the campaign.

    "After we took it to the post office, he asked me to go to the Casablanca for a beer," Mrs. Huntington recalled of their first date at the Cambridge watering hole. She said the couple later told Stevenson that "he played Cupid." They were married in 1957.

    Despite the brickbats that accompanied his first book, it was an article toward the end of his career that became his most cited, and most controversial, work. "The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order" centered on how differences between cultures throughout the world would be the cause of most post-Cold War conflicts. It was this premise, said former student Todd Fine, that inspired Dr. Huntington's argument against the war in Iraq.

    "Even though he didn't make a big to-do about it ahead of time, he was against the Iraq war. [It was] his belief that it was unnecessary to antagonize other cultures and civilizations," Fine said.

    Dr. Huntington was born in 1927 in New York City and he was impressive from an early age. In a span of five years, he graduated from Yale at age 18 in 1946, served briefly in the Army, received a master's degree from the University of Chicago, and then his doctorate from Harvard in 1951. By then, he had also begun his long teaching career at Harvard - at the age of 23.

    Except for a brief stint at Columbia University, where he was associate director of the Institute of War and Peace Studies from 1959 to 1962, Dr. Huntington remained attached to Harvard for six decades. A longtime professor of government, and former chairman of the department, he was most recently the Albert J. Weatherhead III University Professor. He also served as president of the American Political Science Association from 1986-1987.

    "I will remember him as a great teacher and as an accomplished professor who was always willing to listen to students' ideas," said Fine.

    Dr. Huntington's classes were frequently oversubscribed, a fact that Fine said was because of Dr. Huntington's demands for a small class size. "He insisted that his classes have small enough class size that there could be dialogue between students and professor."

    Nancy Huntington agreed.

    "He was a tremendous mentor to his students. A whole generation of young scholars out there . . . grew up under his wing," she said.

    In addition to his wife, Dr. Huntington leaves two sons, Nicholas of Newton and Timothy of Boston; and four grandchildren.

    Burial services are private. A memorial service at Harvard is planned for the spring. Details are pending.
    © Copyright 2008 Globe Newspaper Company.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by astralis View Post
    heck, we should see a "confucian" civilization centered around china pop up, surprise, neither vietnam nor korea nor taiwan are big fans of THAT idea...
    Huntington should go to China (again?) and walk around and see what's in the attached zip file. "Civilization" is a word and a civilization is just people living together. Confusing the "word-sign" with the what it signifies in the world is seductively easy when working as a professional word-smith.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  8. #23
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    Apologies, I missed the previous post about Huntington's demise. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea magna culpa.

    Still, those wanting to understand Confucian civilization will find few vestiges of it in the very modern cities. Yes, it can be found among the older villagers in rural China where, it is true, the majority still lives; and where the younger are leaving for the cities.

    In the competition for the hearts and minds of Chinese between Confucianism, Maoism and CocaCola-nism, they vote with their feet and Coke wins by a landslide.
    Last edited by emdotvee; 30 Dec 08, at 04:00.

  9. #24
    Distant Deeps or Skies Senior Contributor HistoricalDavid's Avatar
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    It's been ages since I read it, and even then I read bits and pieces of it, but doesn't Huntingdon mention himself how young Middle Eastern men are perfectly capable of wearing jeans and drinking Coca-Cola while at the same time rigging up bombs to blow up Westerners? There's no reason why Coca-Cola should prove such a strong glue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid View Post
    It's been ages since I read it, and even then I read bits and pieces of it, but doesn't Huntingdon mention himself how young Middle Eastern men are perfectly capable of wearing jeans and drinking Coca-Cola while at the same time rigging up bombs to blow up Westerners? There's no reason why Coca-Cola should prove such a strong glue.
    Touche, David. Any thoughts about rural migration to the cities apart from economic necessity?

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    I used a word "Coca~Cola-nism" without saying what I mean by it. So, here goes: it's astronomer and sci-fi writer David Brin's idea of the (European) Enlightenment and it's progeny viz. markets, democracy, science and law courts. These build societies, or, in our context, civilizations. that David Brin says. have dismantled feudal power structures and require "reciprocal accountability."

  12. #27
    Former Staff Senior Contributor Ironduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HistoricalDavid View Post
    It's been ages since I read it, and even then I read bits and pieces of it, but doesn't Huntingdon mention himself how young Middle Eastern men are perfectly capable of wearing jeans and drinking Coca-Cola while at the same time rigging up bombs to blow up Westerners? There's no reason why Coca-Cola should prove such a strong glue.
    He mentions that Middle Easterners have no problem incorporating Western technology into their everyday lives, and it's Western ideas they have a problem with. I don't recall any mentions of suicide bombings or Coca-Cola in his book.

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