Shek

JAD,

The Ugly American does tell of great achievements by Americans amongst the vignettes of those who don't make a good name for America. It is a balance that shows both what not to do along with what to do. Also, you appear to be forgetting the audience I'm talking about I'm pretty confident that they are not American haters.

You're misinterpreting what I'm looking to do, much of which I believe stems from the fact that you haven't read the book. The book clearly demonstrates that the way to win favor is to do within the context of the culture you are operating in, and it does these through a couple of vignettes. Our soldiers are operating as mini-ambassadors everyday in other countries, and if they go about it in a way that comes off as American arrogance, then we won't see success or else it will come at a higher cost, no matter what the intentions are. As the saying goes, good intentions aren't enough.

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"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

JAD_333

I wasn't expecting that reply. I thought you might say you did include books about great achievement. But it makes sense. I had second thoughts about my comment. You are in the best position to judge what is best for your students.


No, I understood, although you're right. I haven't read the book, except part of the scene setting first chapter. But the thread was dwelling on foreign service deficiencies and American boorish behavior abroad. I understood
that much. Maybe the book isn't about that. Anyway, I like my negative and/or positive telling of current or past events in documentary style. Two hundred some pages in fictional format is overkill IMO. You handled a big chunk of the problem it in one post. If I had to recommend 10 books to West Pointers, that book wouldn't be on the list; it would be a footnote.


The book would be good reading in a class about winning hearts and minds. I didn't know that was the class you're teaching.

I agree, but I would look for real examples to teach that, not a novel, no matter if it does grasp the essential point. Fictional characters create biases in people's minds about certain types of people and how they get on in life. Is the ambassador in the book typical? No, but someone not around many ambassadors might think so.

__________________
To be Truly ignorant, Man requires an Education. (Plato)

Ray

I found the book Ugly American to be a very powerful book, which indicated the good that the US was doing and yet not getting credit for and the misunderstanding thereof of US intention.

It moved me immensely and I loved the book and it also helped to sift through the anti Americanism that was rife during that period, before I got judgemental. (You must remember those days there was a huge sympathy for the USSR since they were projected as pro people!)

[quote]Though there are great many achievements done by the US, but the problem is that the US overdoes the tomtoming in a very crass manner of these achievement over and over again. The lack of modesty is what gets other's back up and results in the others feeling that the Americans are boorish; which is not true, if you meet Americans individually. Individually, they are as good as any other nationality and what is more, they are so open, good and so deceptively harmless!

The first chapter is what grips you!

Don't take my word for it, but the Americans appear a bit brash when they come as tourists. And that is the impression that one gets to have about the US.


The book is a powerful instrument of Psy Ops wherein with some truth thrown in, a covert 'weapon' is released wherein the book indicates that the goodness that the US wants to project is ruined by some inept bureaucratic bungling. It in no way suggests that the US diplomats are chumps. What is more, it strikes a chord with the reader (of any nation) that bureaucrats the world over are the same and hence the US inspite of being good Samaritans, are derailed in projecting it so!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Ray

The Germans don't rule the waves.

The British used to and they did it rather well with the multitudinous cultures and people they ruled/ subjugated.

The US is currently the sole arbiter of the world's destiny and so one cannot compare the Germans for their "insensitivity" with the US not developing the wherewithal to rule.

However, I feel that what the foreign troops do within their own walls should not really affect the locals.

There are some very intellectually inclined people staffing the US Foreign Service.

There is no doubt that the US soldiers are the 'face' of the US, that the Iraqis and Afghans see and stereotype as the typical Americans! Therefore, it is but essential that they are conversant with the local environment so as to project the correct image of the US. This is more so important since the environment is not favourable for projection of the image!

JAD_333

[quote]

I know what you mean. I myself and other people I know are sometimes embarressed by the "tomtoming". Certain claims are true, but it would be just as well if they weren't trumpeted so often. Greatness applies to so many aspects of life, that to lay claim to being the greatest country without some diferentiation can be misleading. But at the same time, here in the US we get good doses of where we are lagging behind some other countries, notably in education and health care. So, our heads aren't as big as it may seem to people abroad.

By the way what I meant by great achievments was not national achievements like the Marshall Plan, but individual ones like, for example, a biography of George Washington, Churchill, Saladin, or Alexander the Great. Or, even the impact of a small group of citizen leaders, such as those who mobilized US industry for WWII, told about in the fascinating book The Wise Men by Walter Isaacson and Evan Thomas. I am sure you have parallel examples in Indian literature.


Yes, the portrait of the ambassador. I know we have fielded some ambassadors like that, but rarely. To less spohisticated minds, portraits like that can lead to a bias. Maybe, it's much ado about nothing on my part.

I know. When I lived abroad and had fallen into the swing of daily life, I observed many such tourists. Very amusing. But I have to say that the Americans weren't alone. The Germans were a trip with their beer thermometers, at least in Spain where I was living.


I made a similar point earlier, namely the good intentions of those who devise aid projects is often bungled due to inept or uncaring bureaucrats tasked with carrying them out. My point with respect to the book is that there are better ways to convey its premise to officers in training than this fictional account, actual case studies for example. But I had best climb dowm of my soapbox having not read the book.

Ray

JAD,

That is the Cross a 'celebrity' nation has to bear!

Other nationalities may be boorish, but they do not gain infamy, because who cares for them? They are one of the many, while is US is the one and only. So, take heart.

One talks of something important with whole lot of emotions. One does not talk about the mundane and plebeian.

Skull6

Oh, I don't know about that, Ray. How is the weather where you are today?

& yes, I've seen for some time now that the U.S. Service Members "could" be better ambassadors. But believe me, it's not for lack of intent, but merely lack of knowledge of the nuances of life in the areas that they find themselves operating within.

In my personal opinion, we're making some improvements. We are starting to again instruct our Soldiers much more on the cultures & religions of different people around the globe. But alas, there is still far to go. I just pray that we've re-learned this lesson again--for the last time (as in "I hope we remember it forever now.").

__________________
If you know the enemy and yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. - Sun Tzu

JAD_333

Ray:

Those are heartening words, and I appreciate them.

Still, while the fact may be that the US is the greatest at this time in history, it would be good if our more smug domestic commentators toned it down a bit lest they spread the disease of smugness among the populace. If history is to be believed, nations that rise to the top tend to rest on their laurals. Translation: glory in their achievement at the expense of maintaining their greatness.

Zeng

Never read “The Ugly American”.

But I have read the Chinese version of “The Ugly C h i n a m a n and the Crisis of Chinese Culture” by Mr. Bo Yang.

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: The Ugly ******** and the Crisis of Chinese Culture

Some of the customer reviews (especially the first one) on the amazon.com are excellent.

Overall, it is a very good book. I read it long time ago.

It focuses on the worst behaviors of Chinese people and the worst part of the Chinese culture. It is not intended to give a well balanced picture of the Chinese people and culture. But it is good to know how bad we and our culture are sometimes.

This book was a best seller in mainland China in 1980s or early 1990s. It is not censored in mainland China as one reviewer claimed.

There is also a book of “The Ugly Japanese or that sort” by a Japanese author who used to be the Japanese ambassador to Argentina. But I only read its brief introduction long time ago.


PS. The title of the book has a word "C h i n a m a n".

It is a degrading word calling Chinese. I am very glad to know that the WAB censored this word. Thanks. I really appreciate that.

But I don't feel insulted by this word in the situation of this book. Mr. Bo Yang is very respected in mainland China.

__________________
I am here for exchanging opinions.

Ray

In cricket, there is a type of bowling called "C h i n a m a n".

Zeng

Ray Sir,

Thanks for teaching us terminology of cricket here.

Please don’t worry. I am fine and I wouldn’t argue with you about that.

In fact, another Indian military professional directly called me using the word of "C h i n a m a n". I didn’t argue with him either.

As Chinese, I wouldn’t do this kind of thing to you. If I made an innocent mistake to say a word offending you, I will make apology.

When I found out that the WAB mods were very considerate to censors this word, I say thanks and express appreciation.

As Indian, you are welcome to say whatever you want. You are deomcratic and have the freedom of speech.

Ray

Zeng,

I was in no way justifying that the use of the word to describe the people of China! Heavens forbid such a connection.

I was only giving some info and easing the atmospheric tension that may have been caused by whoever had used the word to incorrectly describe people from China and hurt their sentiments.

Ray

Zeng,

I was in no way justifying that the use of the word to describe the people of China! Heavens forbid such a connection.

I was only giving some info and easing the atmospheric tension that may have been caused by whoever had used the word to incorrectly describe people from China and hurt their sentiments.

************************************************** *****

Mods,

I wonder why this double post is occurring!

It tells me to wait 5 seconds before reposting, when I have not even posted and then the double post appears!

And it is happening only on this forum.

Officer of Engineers

Sir,

It has also happened to me. I think the main server needs rebooting but that's not our call.

__________________
Chimo

Officer of Engineers

See.