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Thread: Fourth Generation Warfare (4GW) - Back to the Future or Fraud?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Its still a red herring, you don't ravage a city for isolated acts but for willful rebellion.

    As for being Kurdish, I was recalling Kurds calling for the city to be included in thier region. My apologies.
    Mosul is about 40 miles south of the "Green Line" and is a predominantly Sunni city. What a world of difference it makes

    Since I'm not understanding/misunderstanding where you draw the line between isolated acts and willful rebellion, can you provide some examples in Iraq of where willful rebellion has occured? Thanks.
    Last edited by Shek; 15 Apr 07, at 02:16.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    Anbar p[rovince, Basra, Sadr City, Fallujah, Syrian Border areas etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Anbar p[rovince, Basra, Sadr City, Fallujah, Syrian Border areas etc.
    When? Why?
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    please clarify what you mean by wher eand when, or did you not even read the article you posted about the American embedded with the Brits? The many battles for fallujah etc you don't fight battles for cities agaisnt isoalted bands of nere do wells.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    please clarify what you mean by wher eand when, or did you not even read the article you posted about the American embedded with the Brits? The many battles for fallujah etc you don't fight battles for cities agaisnt isoalted bands of nere do wells.
    I want specific dates and incidents. I think we'll find that what was needed was not a reaction to the incidents, but rather simply more troops to provide security, i.e. a doctrinally sound counterinsurgency strategy based on population control and not enemy-centric. The insurgency grew from few isolated incidents to more isolated incidents to even more isolated incidents.

    Sadr could have been made less relevant in Sadr City if we had secured Sadr City from the get go and demonstrated that we were in their best interests. We gained lots of traction in Sadr City under 1CAV, but it wasn't sustained due to the emphasis on transitioning to Iraqi control as an exit strategy. If we had done this from the get go with 1AD, then Sadr wouldn't be seen as the person providing services (we needed good info ops to counter his highly successful info ops campaign). Outside of Sadr City, Sadr could have been made irrelevant if we had the troops throughout the South and if the Brits had been more forceful in preventing him from gaining a foothold.

    Anbar still would have been a tough nut to crack with the strain of Salafism in it, but the source of the insurgency was secured by only a brigade/ACR in the insurgencies formative months. The insurgency had all the space in the world to form there. In addition to space, too few troops results in exponentially more self-damaging ops - whack a mole operations where even fully legit and successful ops result in a propaganda victory because there aren't any troops around to get the word out on the action taken because they've had to move onto another place to repeat the process.

    I agree with you that we should have paid the price in the beginning, but with an important difference. The price should have been troops and $$. We fought the peace on the cheap, which is why we're still paying towards the peace.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    Shek,

    We both agree on the wish we coulda and the wish we wouldas. But that is not the issue today. Sadr has upwards of 10,000 militiamen and Sunni insurgents operate openly in many parts of the country. Only by bringing thse forces to hell can peace be secured. They are not interested in buying into a unified Iraq. They have thier own agendas or the agendas of thier forgien master to obey.

    Those fighters will not go home and lay thier weapons down anytime soon. In the end planting them 6 feet under enmasse will save more lives than this piddly diddly BS we are engaged in now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zraver View Post
    Shek,

    We both agree on the wish we coulda and the wish we wouldas. But that is not the issue today. Sadr has upwards of 10,000 militiamen and Sunni insurgents operate openly in many parts of the country. Only by bringing thse forces to hell can peace be secured. They are not interested in buying into a unified Iraq. They have thier own agendas or the agendas of thier forgien master to obey.

    Those fighters will not go home and lay thier weapons down anytime soon. In the end planting them 6 feet under enmasse will save more lives than this piddly diddly BS we are engaged in now.
    Z,

    COIN strategy doesn't preclude putting these guys 6 feet under, especially the Salafists with whom negotiations are futile, as there is no negotiation.

    As far as Sadr's guys go, selective engagements and a population-centric strategy is the way to go. JAM is not universally popular, and much of the support is based on the social support network and security services they provide. 1CAV operations were moderately successful in Sadr City (and the fighting in AUG 04 was directly tied to the direct competition that 1CAV was going to provide in the jobs market), but the strings were cut in the rush to build ISF capacity and hand it over to prove that they were in the lead.

    In terms of the size of JAM, I've seen numbers upwards of 60K; however, this is a far cry from the size of the population amongst whom they operate, with Sadr City itself being over 2 million. Thus, any non-selective operation, general retribution type op is simply not viable IMO, as it would serve solely to inflame and unite those who aren't full Sadr supporters into the Sadr camp.

    Sadr himself is more problematic given the martyr status of his father, but I think we have a position where we can start to marginalize his status relative to its prior apex.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    Shek is hitting it on the head for the most part. I do think had we wiped Fallujah off the map that would have been justified but you cannot respond to every single attack with a massacre. I mean you could and you would more than likely control Iraq, but we will not so it is a moot argument.

    W

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    Fourth Generation Evolves; Fifth Generation Emerges

    COL Hammes' latest article.

    http://usacac.army.mil/CAC/milreview...n07/Hammes.pdf

    Fourth Generation Evolves; Fifth Generation Emerges

    Seventeen years ago, a small group of authors introduced the concept of “Four generations of War.” Frankly, the concept did not get much traction for the first dozen years. Then came 9/11. Some of the fourthgeneration warfare (4GW) proponents claimed that the Al-Qaeda attacks were a fulfillment of what they had predicted. However, most military thinkers, for a variety of reasons, continued to dismiss the 4GW concept. In fact, about the only place 4GW was carefully discussed was on an Al-Qaeda website.

    In January 2002, one ‘Ubed al-Qurashi quoted extensively from two Marine Corps Gazette articles about 4GW.1 He then stated, “The fourth generation of wars [has] already taken place and revealed the superiority of the theoretically weak side. In many instances, these wars have resulted in the defeat of ethnic states [duwal qawmiyah] at the hands of ethnic groups with no states.”

    Essentially, one of Al-Qaeda’s leading strategists stated categorically that the group was using 4GW against the United States—and expected to win. Even this did not stimulate extensive discussion in the West, where the 9-11 attacks were seen as an anomaly, and the apparent rapid victories in Afghanistan and Iraq appeared to vindicate the Pentagon’s vision of high-technology warfare. It was not until the Afghan and Iraqi insurgencies began
    growing and the continuing campaign against Al-Qaeda faltered that serious
    discussion of 4GW commenced in the United States.

    Yet today, even within the small community of writers exploring 4GW, there remains a range of opinions on how to define the concept and what its implications are. This is a healthy process and essential to the development
    of a sound concept because 4GW, like all previous forms of war, continues to evolve even as discussions continue. That brings me to the purpose of this article: to widen the discussion on what forms 4gW may take and to offer a possible model for the next generation of war: 5GW.

    ***

    Fifth-generation warfare will result from the continued shift of political and social loyalties to causes rather than nations. It will be marked by the increasing power of smaller and smaller entities and the explosion of biotechnology. 5GW will truly be a nets-and-jets war: networks will distribute the key information, provide a source for the necessary equipment and material, and constitute a field from which to recruit volunteers; the jets will provide for worldwide, inexpensive, effective dissemination of the weapons. The contagion scenario I described above is among the more devastating possible, but smallpox is only one weapon a super-empowered small group could use to attack society. Tthey may use any number of evolving technologies. The key fact to remember is that changes in the political, economic, social, and technical spheres are making it possible for a small group bound together by a cause to use new technologies to challenge nation-states. We cannot roll back those changes, nor can we prevent the evolution of war. Clearly, we as a Nation, and particularly our military, are not ready to counter the coming attacks. It’s time to start thinking about how we might deal with this next step in warfare.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    the counter-answer to this (and this discussion of 4GW and 5GW would also fit nicely into the RMA thread). IIRC linds was the one who first laid out the idea of GW.

    -----

    Fifth Generation Warfare?* By William S. Lind

    Fifth Generation Warfare?

    2/03/04
    By William S. Lind

    Despite the fact that the framework of the Four Generations of Modern War is relatively new, first appearing in print in 1989, some observers are now talking about a Fifth Generation. Some see the Fifth Generation as a product of new technologies, such as nanotechnology. Others define it as the state’s struggle to maintain its monopoly on war and social organization in the face of Fourth Generation challengers. One correspondent defined it as terrorist acts done by one group in such a manner that they are blamed on another, something traditionally known as “pseudo-operations.”

    These ideas are all valuable, and if people try to think beyond or outside the framework of the Four Generations, that is probably a good thing. An intellectual framework must remain open or it descends into an ideology, something poisonous per se (as Russell Kirk wrote, conservatism is the negation of ideology). At the same time, I have to say that these attempts to announce a Fifth Generation seem to go a generation too far.

    One reason for the confusion may be a misapprehension of what “generation” means. In the context of the Four Generations of Modern War, “generation” is shorthand for a dialectically qualitative shift. As the originator of the framework, I adopted the word “generation” because I was speaking to and writing for Marines, and “dialectically qualitative shift” has more syllables than the Marine mind can readily grasp (think of the Emperor Joseph II’s response when he first heard Mozart’s music: “Too many notes.”). Most Marines vaguely remember that Hegel pitched for the Yankees in the late 1940’s.

    As that old German would be quick to tell us, dialectically qualitative shifts occur very seldom. In my view, there were only three in the field of warfare since the modern era began with the Peace of Westphalia; the Fourth marks the end of the modern period.

    One simple test for whether or not something constitutes a generational shift is that, absent a vast disparity in size, an army from a previous generation cannot beat a force from the new generation. The Second Generation French Army of 1940 could not defeat the Third Generation Wehrmacht, even thought the French had more tanks and better tanks than the Germans. The reason I do not think the wars of the French Revolution and Napoleon mark a generational shift is that Wellington consistently beat the French, and the British Army he led remained very much an 18th century army.

    While attempts to think beyond the Four Generations should generally be welcomed, there are some shoals to avoid. One is technological determinism, the false notion that war’s outcome is usually determined by superiority in equipment. Martin van Creveld’s book Technology and War makes a strong case that technology is seldom the determining factor.

    A related danger is technological hucksterism: coming up with Madison Avenue slogans to sell new weapons programs by claiming that they fundamentally change warfare. This kind of carnival sideshow act lies at the heart of the so-called “Revolution in Military Affairs,” and it dominates all discussions of national defense in Washington. Every contractor who hopes to get his snout in the trough claims that his widget “revolutionizes” war. As the framework of the Four Generations spreads, you can be sure that the Merchants of Death will claim that whatever they are trying to sell is an absolute necessity for Fourth (or Fifth) Generation war. It will all be poppycock.

    From what I have seen thus far, honest attempts to discover a Fifth Generation suggest that their authors have not fully grasped the vast change embodied in the Fourth Generation. The loss of the state’s monopoly, not only on war but also on social organization and first loyalties, alters everything. We are only in the earliest stages of trying to understand what the Fourth Generation means in full and how it will alter – or, in too many cases, end – our lives.

    Attempting to visualize a Fifth Generation from where we are now is like trying to see the outlines of the Middle Ages from the vantage point of the late Roman Empire. There is no telescope that can reach so far. We can see the barbarians on the march. In America and in Europe, we already find them inside the limes and within the legions. But what follows the chaos they bring in their wake, only the gods on Mount Olympus can see. It may be worth remembering that the last time this happened, the gods themselves died.
    The human mind cannot grasp the causes of phenomena in the aggregate. But the need to find these causes is inherent in man’s soul. And the human intellect, without investigating the multiplicity and complexity of the conditions of phenomena, any one of which taken separately may seem to be the cause, snatches at the first, the most intelligible approximation to a cause, and says: “This is the cause!"

    -Leo Tolstoy
    War and Peace

  11. #41
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    Hi Guys,

    Question: by creating this taxonomy, are we possibly over complicating our task?

    I guess this generations of warfare stuff is handy enough for military historical purposes, but for understanding the security tasks at hand and attempting to skry those of tommorrow, is it really that useful?

    A much simpler model might be far more useful to planners and policy makers.

    For instance: why not just view warfare as a throughput process in which there is the symmetrical and the asymmetrical and neither can escape the other?

    Such a rubric would cover all levels from the tactical to the grand strategic amply and free up reams of copy and zillions of neurons that might be better spent aiding the efforts to send the enemy to Hell.

    I am not knocking the work of Lind, Hammes, et al., just speculating on the overall utility of the effort.

    Regards,

    William
    Pharoh was pimp but now he is dead. What are you going to do today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift Sword View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Question: by creating this taxonomy, are we possibly over complicating our task?

    I guess this generations of warfare stuff is handy enough for military historical purposes, but for understanding the security tasks at hand and attempting to skry those of tommorrow, is it really that useful?

    A much simpler model might be far more useful to planners and policy makers.

    For instance: why not just view warfare as a throughput process in which there is the symmetrical and the asymmetrical and neither can escape the other?

    Such a rubric would cover all levels from the tactical to the grand strategic amply and free up reams of copy and zillions of neurons that might be better spent aiding the efforts to send the enemy to Hell.

    I am not knocking the work of Lind, Hammes, et al., just speculating on the overall utility of the effort.

    Regards,

    William
    William,

    Your post is the crux of the criticism of the generational warfare construct. It is more descriptive than prescriptive, and where it is prescriptive, it doesn't add any new prescriptions that didn't already exist. I enjoy reading Hammes because his dog is more in the what to do rather than building the framework IMO.
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shek View Post
    William,

    I enjoy reading Hammes because his dog is more in the what to do rather than building the framework IMO.
    Sacre Bleu! He has a philosophising hound to assist him?
    Semper in excretum. Solum profunda variat.

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