Geographic Catalysts for Secularization in Western Europe - Page 3

Bulgaroctonus · 02-10-2007, 23:34 PM

Members,

I thank Ironduke for his courteous invitation to this thread. I do not have the time for a full treatment of a worthy topic, but I will offer my quick comments.

Any banter about the theology of Christianity, or its merits versus other religions, is out of place in this thread. Furthermore, any discussion of Eastern sects, as Zraver's, is also irrelevant since Islam had reduced most of Eastern Christianity to political impotence by the time of the Reformation, which is the purview of this study. The Staff College won't go anywhere if the threads float everywhere.

Moreover, Ironduke already acknowledged that geography was not the main reason for the Reformation. There is no need to split hairs over that. Instead, geography was a prime reason the Reformation endured.

That being said, I generally agree with Ironduke's thesis. Northern Europe fractured from the Roman communion while the Western Mediterranean remained part of Catholicism because of two distinct geographic factors: distance and obstacles.

On the first note, Northern Europe is simply far from Rome. Religious control can be maintained (barely) if the land is united under a single government (Roman Empire) or if the lands administered are peaceful and cooperative, as in the medieval era. However, the Renaissance popes were not the commanders of a united government, nor were areas distant from Rome interested in cooperating religiously. Conversely, the popes were politically impotent and Northern Europe was the locus of emerging strong states and economic revitalization.

On the second note, that of geographic barriers, we can never underestimate the power of the Alps, English Channel, and the Baltic Sea. These broad features contributed greatly to the preservation of Protestant power. The English Channel insulated Britain from Spain and France. The Alps held Switzerland and Germany to a lesser extent (since Catholic Austria was already on the near-side of the Alps). The Baltic and Kattegat defended Scandinavia.

Distance and barriers are important because they impeded the fragile and slow means of Renaissance travel. Ideological travel was limited to the speed of rider or ship. Once Britain was Protestant, it prevented the Catholic powers from flanking Northern Europe navally. The rider carrying the pope's missives was slowed by the Alps and the long distances. In addition, true orthodoxy could only be enforced by military conquest and occupation, the movement of which was slow due to infantry and baggage.

Some research might be done into how the Netherlands were able to defy geographic trends to a good extent, there being few boundaries between it and Catholic France.

My post would be improved with scholarly references. Again, I am in the middle of busy college weekend, and I can't polish this post as much as I would like.

Regards,

Bulgaroctonus

Ray · 02-11-2007, 02:26 AM

Quote:

The Hellenic civilization took the form of a collection of city-states (the most important being Athens, Corinth, Siracuse and Sparta), having vastly differing types of government and cultures, including what are unprecedented developments in various governmental forms, philosophy, science, politics, sports, theatre and music. The Hellenic city-states founded a large number of colonies on the shores of the Black Sea and the Mediterranean sea, Asia Minor, Sicily and Southern Italy in Magna Graecia, but in the 4th century BC their internal wars made them an easy prey for king Philip II of Macedon. The campaigns of his son Alexander the Great spread Greek culture into Persia, Egypt and India, but also favoured contact with the older learnings of those countries, opening up a new period of development, known as Hellenism.

Much of Greek learning was assimilated by the nascent Roman state as it expanded outward from Italy, taking advantage of its enemies' inability to unite: the only real challenge to Roman ascent came from the Phoenician colony of Carthage, but its defeat in the end of the 3rd century BC marked the start of Roman hegemony. First governed by kings, then as a senatorial republic (the Roman Republic), Rome finally became an empire at the end of the 1st century BC, under Augustus and his authoritarian successors. The Roman Empire had its centre in the Mediterranean Sea, controlling all the countries on its shores; the northern border was marked by the Rhine and Danube rivers; under emperor Trajan (2nd century AD) the empire reached its maximum expansion, including Britain, Romania and parts of Mesopotamia. The empire brought peace, civilization and an efficient centralized government to the subject territories, but in the 3rd century a series of civil wars undermined its economic and social strength. In the 4th century, the emperors Diocletian and Constantine were able to slow down the process of decline by splitting the empire into a Western and an Eastern part. Whereas Diocletian severely persecuted Christianity, Constantine declared an official end to state-sponsored persecution of Christians in 313 with the Edict of Milan, thus setting the stage for the empire to later become officially Christian in about 380 (which would cause the Church to become an important institution).

Middle Ages

Western Europe emerged as the site of a distinct civilization after the fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century, as Germanic peoples conquered it, while the Eastern Roman Empire (also known as the Byzantine Empire) survived for another millennium. The Roman Empire was already divided into Greek-speaking and Latin-speaking regions for centuries. In the 7th and 8th century the Arab expansion brought Islamic cultures to the southern Mediterranean shores (from Syria to Sicily and Spain), further enlarging the differences between the various Mediterranean civilizations. In the same century, Bulgarians created the first Slavic state in Europe - Bulgaria. Feudalism created a new order in a world without cities and replaced the centralized Roman administration which was based on cities and a highly organized army. The only institution surviving the collapse of the Western Roman Empire was the Roman Catholic Church, which preserved part of the Roman cultural inheritance and remained the primary source of learning in its domain at least until the 13th century; the bishop of Rome, known as the Pope, became the leader of the western church (in the east his supremacy was not accepted in the end).

The Holy Roman Empire emerged around 800, as Charlemagne, king of the Franks, was crowned by the pope as emperor. His empire based in modern France, the Low Countries and Germany expanded into modern Hungary, Italy, Bohemia, Lower Saxony and Spain. He and his father received substantial help from an alliance with the Pope, who wanted help against the Lombards. The pope was officially a vassal of the Byzantine Empire, but the Byzantine emperor did (could do) nothing against the Lombards.

Two empires, Great Moravia and Kievan Rus', emerged among the Western and Eastern Slavs respectively in the 9th century. In the late 9th century and 10th century, northern and western Europe felt the burgeoning power and influence of the Vikings who raided, traded, conquered and settled swiftly and efficiently with their advanced sea-going vessels such as the longships. The Hungarians pillaged mainland Europe and the Arabs the south. In the 10th century independent kingdoms were established in Central Europe, for example, Poland and Kingdom of Hungary. Hungarians had stopped their pillaging campaigns; prominent nation states also included Bulgaria and Serbia, that have rivalled Byzantium in the Balkans.

The subsequent period, ending around 1000, saw the further growth of feudalism, which weakened the Holy Roman Empire.

High Middle Ages

After the East-West Schism, Western Christianity was adopted by newly created kingdoms of Central Europe: Poland, Hungary and Bohemia.

The Roman Catholic Church developed as a major power, leading to conflicts between the Pope and Emperor.

The area of the Roman Catholic Church expanded enormously due to conversions of pagan kings (Scandinavia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary) and crusades. Most of Europe was Roman Catholic in the 15th century.

Late Middle Ages

Early signs of the rebirth of civilization in western Europe began to appear in the 11th century as trade started again in Italy, leading to the economic and cultural growth of independent city states such as Venice and Florence; at the same time, nation-states began to take form in places such as France, England, Spain, and Portugal, although the process of their formation (usually marked by rivalry between the monarchy, the aristocratic feudal lords and the church) actually took several centuries. These new nation-states began writing in their own cultural vernaculars, instead of the traditional Latin. Notable figures of this movement would include Christine de Pisan and Dante, the former writing in French, and the latter in Italian.(See Reconquista for the latter two countries.) On the other hand, the Holy Roman Empire, essentially based in Germany and Italy, further fragmented into a myriad of feudal principalities or small city states, whose subjection to the emperor was only formal

Europe in the 14th century

One of the largest catastrophes to have hit Europe was the Black Death. There were numerous outbreaks, but the most severe was in the mid-1300s and is estimated to have killed a third of Europe's population. Since many Jews worked as money-lenders (usury was not allowed for Christians) the Jews were often disliked by Europeans, so it was popular to blame them for the epidemic. This led to increased persecution of Jews in some areas. Thousands of Jews fled to Poland which, ironically, was spared by the first plague, but black death came back time after time.

Beginning in the 14th century, the Baltic Sea became one of the most important trade routes. The Hanseatic League, an alliance of trading cities, facilitated the absorption of vast areas of Poland, Lithuania and other Baltic countries into the economy of Europe. This fed the growth of powerful states in Eastern Europe including Poland, Hungary, Bohemia and Russia. The conventional end of the Middle Ages is usually associated with the fall of the city Constantinople and of the Byzantine Empire to the Ottoman Turks in 1453. The Turks made the city the capital of their Ottoman Empire, which lasted until 1919 and also included Egypt, Syria and most of the Balkans.

Renaissance and Reformation

Petrarch wrote in the 1330s: 'I am alive now, yet I would rather have been born in another time.' He was enthusiastic about the Greek and Roman antiquity with great men who were dead. Matteo Palmieri wrote in the 1430s: 'Now indeed may every thoughtful spirit thank god that it has been permitted to him to be born in a new age.' The renaissance was born: a new age where learning was very important.

The Renaissance was inspired by the growth in study of Latin and Greek texts and the admiration of the Greco-Roman era as a golden age. This prompted many artists and writers to begin drawing from Roman and Greek examples for their works, but there was also much innovation in this period especially by multi-faceted artists like Leonardo da Vinci. Much of the Greek texts came from Islamic sources who also improved upon them. Important political precedents were also set in this period. Machiavelli's political writing in The Prince influenced later absolutism and real-politik, also important was the fact that many patrons ruled states and used the artistry of the Renaissance as a sign of their power.

During this period corruption in the Catholic Church lead to a sharp backlash in the Protestant Reformation. It gained many followers especially among princes and kings seeking a stronger state by ending the influence of the Catholic Church. Figures other than Martin Luther began to emerge as well like John Calvin whose Calvinism had influence in many countries and King Henry VIII of England who broke away from the Catholic Church in England and set up the Anglican Church. These religious divisions brought on a wave of wars inspired and driven by religion but also by the ambitious monarchs in Western Europe who were becoming more centralized and powerful.

The Protestant Reformation also led to a strong reform movement in the Catholic Church called the Counter-Reformation, which aimed to reduce corruption as well as to improve and strengthen Catholic Dogma. An important group in the Catholic Church who emerged from this movement were the Jesuits who helped keep Eastern Europe within the Catholic fold. Still, the Catholic Church was intensely weakened by the Reformation, large parts of Europe were no longer under its sway and kings in the remaining Catholic countries began to take control of the Church institutions within their kingdoms.

Unlike Western Europe, the countries of Central Europe, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and Hungary, were more tolerant. While still enforcing the predominance of Catholicism they continued to allow the large religious minorities to maintain their faiths. Central Europe became divided between Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox and Jews.

Another important development in this period was the growth of pan-European sentiments. Eméric Crucé (1623) came up with the idea of the European Council, intended to end wars in Europe; attempts to create lasting peace were no success, although all European countries (except the Russian and Ottoman Empires, regarded as foreign) agreed to make peace in 1518 at the Treaty of London. Many wars broke out again in a few years. The Reformation also made European peace impossible for many centuries.

Another development was the idea of European superiority. The ideal of civilization was taken over from the ancient Greeks and Romans: discipline, education and living in the city were required to make people civilized; Europeans and non-Europeans were judged for their civility, and Europe regarded itself as superior to other continents. There was a movement by some such as Montaigne that regarded the non-Europeans as a better, more natural and primitive people. Post services were founded all over Europe, which allowed a humanistic interconnected network of intellecutals across Europe, despite religious divisions. However, the Roman Catholic church banned many leading scientific works; this led to an intellectual advantage for Protestant countries, where the banning of books was regionally organized. Francis Bacon and other advocates of science tried to create unity in Europe by focusing on the unity in nature.

In the 15th century, at the end of the Middle Ages, powerful states were appearing, built by the New Monarchs who were centralizing power in France, England, and Spain. On the other hand the Parliament in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth grew in power, taking legislative rights from the Polish king. The new state power was contested by parliaments in other countries especially England. New kinds of states emerged which were cooperations between territorial rulers, cities, farmer republics and knights.

The foregoing is to recap in a nutshell the history of Europe.

The Roman Empire was the first manifestation of what is today's Europe and its northern border was marked by the Rhine and Danube rivers; under emperor Trajan (2nd century AD) the empire reached its maximum expansion, including Britain, Romania and parts of Mesopotamia.

The Roman Empire brought in centralised govt and peace.

However, the troubles began in 235, when the emperor Alexander Severus was murdered by soldiers at the age of 27 after Roman legions were defeated in a campaign against Sassanid Persia. As general after general squabbled over control of the empire, the frontiers were neglected and subjected to frequent raids by Carpians, Goths, Vandals and Alamanni, and outright attacks from aggressive Sassanids in the east.

Finally, by 258, the attacks were coming from within, when the Empire broke up in to three separate competing states. The Roman provinces of Gaul, Britain and Hispania broke off to form the Gallic Empire, and two years later in 260, the eastern provinces of Syria, Palestine and Aegyptus became independent as the Palmyrene Empire (with Sassanid backing), leaving the remaining Italian centred Roman empire proper in the middle. The changes in the institutions, society, economic life and eventually religion were so profound and fundamental, that the "Crisis of the Third Century" is increasingly seen as the watershed marking the difference between the classical world and the early medieval world, or world of late antiquity.

This period ended with the accession of Diocletian. Diocletian, either by skill or sheer luck, solved many of the acute problems experienced during this crisis. However, the core problems would remain and cause the eventual destruction of the western empire. The transitions of this period mark the beginnings of Late Antiquity and the end of Classical Antiquity.

The transition from a single united empire to the later divided Western and Eastern empires was a gradual transformation. Diocletian saw that the vast Roman Empire was ungovernable by a single emperor in the face of internal pressures and military threats on two fronts. He therefore split the Empire in half along a north-west axis just east of Italy, and created two equal Emperors to rule under the title of Augustus. Diocletian was Augustus of the eastern half, and gave his long-time friend Maximian the title of Augustus in the western half. In doing so, Diocletian created what would become the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire.

Therefore, issues to note are:

1. The concept of centralised govt that was in force in the Roman Empire had been challenged during the “Crisis of the Third Century” and thus, the centralised control dissolved gradually.

2. Independent power centres had taken birth, resulting in the assertion of individual ‘ethnicity’.

3. The division of the Empire encouraged the ethos of being independent of the centralised concept that the Roman Empire embodied.

The fall of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th Century as also the non recognition of the Bishop of Rome or the Pope as the Head by the Eastern Roman Empire divided the otherwise one people into distinct entities and separate identities. Even so, the Western Roman Empire was not really one. It has the division of the Greek speaking and Latin speaking division. The Arab expansion and the Islamic influence also played a role in injecting cultural awareness and divisions, especially along the Mediterranean coast. While the Slavs exertion of their cultural difference by the creation of a Slavic state independent of the centralised control of Rome added to the breakdown of the Roman Empire. Only the institution of the Roman Catholic Church prevented further collapse of the Empire. Simultaneously, with the erosion of the Papal authority (Reformation Movement) and the rise of feudalism it led to nation states and end of the Roman Empire.

Thus, while the distance did play its role in eroding the control of the Roman Empire and geographical barriers acted as catalysts, the quest for recognition of distinct tribal identities through the rise of feudalism and the vernacular press, catalysed by the weakening of the Papal authority that held the Empire in place, and the political power play amongst the various temporal rulers and satraps dissolved the Roman Empire.

The history of the fall of the Western Empire is summed up thus:

Quote:

The End of the Western Roman Empire

In June 474, Julius Nepos became Western Emperor. In 475, the Magister militum, Orestes, revolted and made his son Romulus Augustus the Roman emperor. Nepos fled to the province of Dalmatia. Romulus, however, was not recognized by the Eastern Emperor Zeno and so was technically an usurper, Nepos still being the legal Western Emperor. However, Romulus Augustus is often known as the last Western Roman emperor.

The year 476 is generally accepted as the end of the Western Roman Empire. That year, Orestes refused the request of Germanic mercenaries in his service for lands in Italy. The dissatisfied mercenaries, including the Heruli, revolted. The revolt was led by the Germanic chieftain Odoacer. Odoacer and his men captured and executed Orestes. Within weeks, Ravenna was captured and Romulus Augustus was deposed, the event that has been traditionally considered the fall of the Roman Empire, at least in the West.

Odoacer then sent the Imperial Regalia back to the emperor Zeno, and the Roman Senate informed Zeno that he was now the Emperor of the whole empire. Zeno soon received two deputations. One was from Odoacer requesting that his control of Italy be formally recognized by the Empire, in which he would acknowledge Zeno's supremacy. The other deputation was from Nepos, asking for support to regain the throne. Zeno granted Odoacer the title Patrician.
Zeno told Odoacer and the Roman Senate to take Nepos back. However, Nepos never returned from Dalmatia, even though Odoacer issued coins in his name. Upon Nepos' death in 480, Zeno claimed Dalmatia for the East; J. B. Bury considers this the real end of the Western Roman Empire. Odoacer attacked Dalmatia, and the ensuing war ended with Theodoric the Great, King of the Ostrogoths, conquering Italy under Zeno's authority.

The next seven decades played out as aftermath. Theodoric was King of the Ostrogoths, but couched his claim to Italy in diplomatic terms as being the representative of the Emperor of the East. Consuls were appointed regularly through his reign: a formula for the consular appointment is provided in Cassiodorus's Book VI. The post of consul was last filled in the west by Theodoric's successor, Athalaric, until he died in 534. Ironically the Gothic War in Italy, which was meant as the reconquest of a lost province for the Emperor of the East and a re-establishment of the continuity of power, actually caused more damage and cut more ties of continuity with the Antique world than the attempts of Theodoric and his minister Cassiodorus to meld Roman and Gothic culture within a Roman form.

The western empire though, was unable to support itself due to population concerns. As much as 80% of the population was estimated to live in the eastern realm. A plague killed off a large percent of population in the western realm. What also cost the western empire was the lack of legions. To stay secure, the empire needed to have 3 million soldiers. Around 300ad, however, they only had an estimated 500,000 troops. Which meant that they could not control the territory the empire posessed. This made it extremely vunrable to barbarian invasions. An economic crisis later hit the empire, which had slowly started when the lack of plunder and slaves from Roman conquests stopped.

In essence, the "fall" of the Roman Empire to a contemporary depended a great deal on where they were and their status in the world. On the great villas of the Italian Campagna, the seasons rolled on without a hitch. The local overseer may have been representing an Ostrogoth, then a Lombard duke, then a Christian bishop, but the rhythm of life and the horizons of the imagined world remained the same. Even in the decayed cities of Italy consuls were still elected. In Auvergne, at Clermont, the Gallo-Roman poet and diplomat Sidonius Apollinaris, bishop of Clermont, realized that the local "fall of Rome" came in 475, with the fall of the city to the Visigoth Euric. In the north of Gaul, a Roman kingdom existed for some years and the Franks had their links to the Roman administration and military as well. In Hispania the last Arian Visigothic king Liuvigild considered himself the heir of Rome. Hispania Baetica was still essentially Roman when the Moors came in 711, but in the northwest, the invasion of the Suevi broke the last frail links with Roman culture in 409. In Aquitania and Provence, cities like Arles were not abandoned, but Roman culture in Britain collapsed in waves of violence after the last legions evacuated: the final legionary probably left Britain in 409.

Eastern Roman Empire (395–1453)
As the west would decline during the 5th century, the richer east would be spared much of the destruction, and in the 6th century the Eastern Empire under the emperor Justinian I reconquered the Italian peninsula from the Ostrogoths, North Africa from the Vandals (their kingdom collapsing in 533), southern Spain, and a narrow tract of the Illyrian coast. These gains were lost during subsequent reigns. Of the many accepted dates for the end of the Roman state, the latest is 610. This is when the Emperor Heraclius made sweeping reforms, forever changing the face of the empire. Greek was readopted as the language of government and Latin influence waned. By 610, the Classical Roman Empire had fallen into the rule of the Greeks and evolved into what modern historians now call the Middle Age Byzantine Empire, although the Empire was never called that way by its contemporaries (rather it was called Romania or Basileia Romaion). The Byzantine Greeks continued to call themselves Romans until their fall to Ottoman Turks in 1453. That year the Roman Empire was ultimately ended by the Fall of Constantinople. Constantine XI, emperor of the Byzantine Empire during 1453 is considered the last Roman emperor. The Greek ethnic self-descriptive name "Romans" survives to this day.

The importance of the Church in being a powerful factor and instrumental in holding the Roman Empire as a single entity cannot be wished away. It will be noticed that with the decline of the Papal authority, the Roman Empire crumbled.

Geography was constant and yet the Roman Empire spanned wide frontiers from the north bordering the Baltics, to the West up to Britain and to Byzantine Empire in the East.

Therefore, while geography did play its part, it would not be wrong to assume that the decline of the Church's authority was instrumental in the collapse of the Roman Empire.

AGNUSDEI · 02-11-2007, 20:23 PM

Hi [ Ray ]

You Are Friend Of Hellas...
Thanks A Lot For This...

I Wish You Personal Happiness ~
And To Your Wonderful Country The Best ~

HAKUNA MATATA

**Parihaka** · 02-11-2007, 20:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bulgaroctonus

Some research might be done into how the Netherlands were able to defy geographic trends to a good extent, there being few boundaries between it and Catholic France.

The Dutch water-line and the House of Orange-Nassau.

**Ironduke** · 02-17-2007, 07:36 AM

Anybody else who would like to provide commentary? I plan doing more research and adding a few pages in the near future if it's truly a worthy topic.

Kartajan · 05-06-2007, 23:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironduke

Anybody else who would like to provide commentary? I plan doing more research and adding a few pages in the near future if it's truly a worthy topic.

While the connection between geography and the Protestant Revolution can be made, and a position of geography as the central catalyst established (over ethnocultural and realpolitik factors) ... you will find it less easy to link the Protestant Revolution with rise/revival of secular states in the West.

Stronger arguments exist of Enlightenment and subsequent scientific developments spurring a skeptic outlook amongst the elites of the West, and them laying the foundations of secular states. The half-finished job of secularizing the society was/is accomplished by Industrialization (which breaks strong religious bonds of the rural parish) and national education (which can spread the outlook of the ruling elites).

lazybastard · 05-07-2007, 03:57 AM

I don't see how France fits into this theory. After the Reformation, France's relative power did not decline, but actually rose; becoming one of the, if not THE dominant power on continental Europe after the collapse of Hapsburg power. France's relative decline only happened once the industrial revolution rolled along. But that has more to do with lack of natural resources, rather than secularism.

02-11-2007, 20:23 PM	#33 (permalink)
AGNUSDEI New Member Join Date: 02-11-07 Location: HELLAS Posts: 5 Country:	Hi [ Ray ] You Are Friend Of Hellas... Thanks A Lot For This... I Wish You Personal Happiness ~ And To Your Wonderful Country The Best ~ HAKUNA MATATA Last edited by AGNUSDEI : 02-11-2007 at 20:31 PM.

02-17-2007, 07:36 AM	#35 (permalink)
Ironduke Burgomaster Join Date: 08-02-03 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 6,973 Country:	Anybody else who would like to provide commentary? I plan doing more research and adding a few pages in the near future if it's truly a worthy topic. __________________ The Buck Stops Here

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02-10-2007, 23:34 PM	#31 (permalink)
Bulgaroctonus *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 10-29-04 Location: Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ Posts: 1,139 Country:	Members, I thank Ironduke for his courteous invitation to this thread. I do not have the time for a full treatment of a worthy topic, but I will offer my quick comments. Any banter about the theology of Christianity, or its merits versus other religions, is out of place in this thread. Furthermore, any discussion of Eastern sects, as Zraver's, is also irrelevant since Islam had reduced most of Eastern Christianity to political impotence by the time of the Reformation, which is the purview of this study. The Staff College won't go anywhere if the threads float everywhere. Moreover, Ironduke already acknowledged that geography was not the main reason for the Reformation. There is no need to split hairs over that. Instead, geography was a prime reason the Reformation endured. That being said, I generally agree with Ironduke's thesis. Northern Europe fractured from the Roman communion while the Western Mediterranean remained part of Catholicism because of two distinct geographic factors: distance and obstacles. On the first note, Northern Europe is simply far from Rome. Religious control can be maintained (barely) if the land is united under a single government (Roman Empire) or if the lands administered are peaceful and cooperative, as in the medieval era. However, the Renaissance popes were not the commanders of a united government, nor were areas distant from Rome interested in cooperating religiously. Conversely, the popes were politically impotent and Northern Europe was the locus of emerging strong states and economic revitalization. On the second note, that of geographic barriers, we can never underestimate the power of the Alps, English Channel, and the Baltic Sea. These broad features contributed greatly to the preservation of Protestant power. The English Channel insulated Britain from Spain and France. The Alps held Switzerland and Germany to a lesser extent (since Catholic Austria was already on the near-side of the Alps). The Baltic and Kattegat defended Scandinavia. Distance and barriers are important because they impeded the fragile and slow means of Renaissance travel. Ideological travel was limited to the speed of rider or ship. Once Britain was Protestant, it prevented the Catholic powers from flanking Northern Europe navally. The rider carrying the pope's missives was slowed by the Alps and the long distances. In addition, true orthodoxy could only be enforced by military conquest and occupation, the movement of which was slow due to infantry and baggage. Some research might be done into how the Netherlands were able to defy geographic trends to a good extent, there being few boundaries between it and Catholic France. My post would be improved with scholarly references. Again, I am in the middle of busy college weekend, and I can't polish this post as much as I would like. Regards, Bulgaroctonus

05-07-2007, 03:57 AM	#37 (permalink)
lazybastard Regular Join Date: 04-27-07 Location: Hicksville PA Posts: 95	I don't see how France fits into this theory. After the Reformation, France's relative power did not decline, but actually rose; becoming one of the, if not THE dominant power on continental Europe after the collapse of Hapsburg power. France's relative decline only happened once the industrial revolution rolled along. But that has more to do with lack of natural resources, rather than secularism.

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