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**Ray** · 01 Aug 08,, 08:35

Originally Posted by yeung3939

First of all, frog in the well is not an English proverb (maybe coincidence? I don't know).

井底之蛙，或稱坐井觀天，是《莊子》「外篇·秋水」中的一則寓言故事。
(The proverb comes from the book "Zhuangzi" written by one of the founders of Daoism as a philosophy, Zhuangzi)

《莊子·秋水》一開始講述了河伯和北海的對話，秋天黃河漲水，河面陡然變寬，寬到連對岸的牛羊都無法看清。河伯洋洋自得，以為自己很了不起，但當其來到入海口看到大海之時，才知道自己何等渺小。北海說道：「井蛙不可以語于海者，拘于虛也」。

本篇其後又講述了井蛙的完整故事，說得是一隻青蛙住在一個陷井[1]之中，一天遇到了一隻來自東海的巨鱉。青蛙對鱉說：「你看我多快樂啊，出去可以在井邊跳來跳去，回來了可以在井里的洞中休息，在水中可以只把頭和嘴巴露出來，還可以把腳踩在軟軟的泥里。那些蝦米、螃蟹、蝌蚪哪個能比得上我？我就是這一井之主，多麼地快樂！你幹嘛不常到井里來看看呢？」那隻巨鱉於是想進到井里，可井卻小得連腳都放不進去。鱉對青蛙說：「你見過大海嗎？其闊何止千里？其深何止千仞？大禹治水之時十年中有九年洪水，也沒有使大海水量增加，商湯之時八年中有七年旱災，海水也沒有減少多少。大海如此不受洪水大旱的影響，這才是住在東海的大快樂呢。」井里的青蛙聽了，驚呆了，方才知道自己所居之地是何等的微不足道。

這則寓言深刻諷刺了沒有見過大世面的人眼界狹小。

This story then appeared again in two other important works: 《荀子》and《後漢書》

It is of course an insult, and was used by those who coined this proverb as insult. Even if you go for the English version, it still has very insulting implication.

Educated Chinese are mostly not frogs in the well. Most uneducated people, including those living in Western countries, are frogs in the well.

Not only educated Chinese are not frogs in or outside the well or even the illiterate Chinese.

However, let us understand English.

I hope you are aware of what is a Figure of Speech in the English Language.

A figure of speech is a rhetorical device that achieves a special effect by using words in distinctive ways.

Figurative language or speech contains images. The writer or speaker describes something through the use of unusual comparisons, for effect, interest, and to make things clearer. The result of using this technique is the creation of interesting images.

Figurative language is not intended to be interpreted in a literal sense. Appealing to the imagination, figurative language provides new ways of looking at the world. It always makes use of a comparison between different things. Figurative language compares two things that are different in enough ways so that their similarities, when pointed out, are interesting, unique and/or surprising.

Epithet is a descriptive word or phrase used to characterize a person (s), place, or thing.

Figurative Language--language using figures of speech (a way of saying one thing and meaning another); in other words, language that cannot be taken literally (or should not be taken literally only). Simile, metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche, personification, apostrophe, are all forms of figurative language.

"Frog in the well" is a figure of speech and not an epithet.

So is 'dog eat dog', 'Let sleeping dogs lie', 'We love to Hate', 'You can't teach an old dog new tricks', 'He who lies down with dogs, rises with fleas', 'His bark is worse than his bite', 'Don't change horses in the middle of the stream', 'Curses, like chickens, come home to roost'.

Can these figures of speech be taken literally? How can a dog eat another dog, or sleep with a dog and rise with fleas, or expect a man to bark and bite to see the comparison, or Curses coming to roost?

One has to understand we are writing in English and so the the interpretation has to done in English. If one has to bring in a figure of speech or an allegory in a foreign tongue, then one has to mention it.

Therefore, it maybe an insult in Chinese, but not in English since it is a figure of speech!

Thus, one has to know the English Language to understand its nuances. Like there are many allegories from the Bible and so one has to read the Bible to understand English e.g. Good Samaritan, Prodigals Son. Unless one knows the Bible, one is at sea and it is Greek to him/her! Here we go again with another example. We are writing in English and it is Greek!

Therefore, understanding English is important or else the English Language and figures of speech is Greek to the person.

**yeung3939** · 01 Aug 08,, 08:35

My English is crap, so I can't really verify your claim. But I really find it difficult not to feel insulted by 'frog in the well'. I also can't imagine a Chinese doesn't feel insulted by 'frog in the well'.

Plus, this is not the only 'insulting' word you have used. Don't tell me 'robots', 'domesticated', 'animals', 'serfs', 'no free will', only concerned with money are not meant to insult Chinese people....

Anyway, please refrain from categorical attack and using potentially insulting/racist words. Your claim that Chinese are 'frogs in the well' may not even be factually correct.

**Ray** · 01 Aug 08,, 08:46

Originally Posted by yeung3939

My English is crap, so I don't really know whether your claim is true or not. But I really find it difficult not to feel insulted by 'frog in the well'. I also can't imagine a Chinese doesn't feel insulted by 'frog in the well'.

Plus, this is not the only 'insulting' word you have used. Don't tell me 'robots', 'domesticated', 'animals', 'serfs', 'no free will', only concerned with money are not meant to insult Chinese people....

Anyway, please refrain from categorical attack and using insulting/racist words.

Well, English was my first language, even though not my mother tongue.

I daresay I know it well enough.

As I had said this is an English Language forum and so the interpretation has to be as per the English language and not in Chinese, Hindi or Japanese.

Obviously, you cannot expect me to know the interpretation in all the languages or cultures of the world. I wonder if anyone can claim that he knows all the languages and cultures and interpretation of figures of speech worldwide. Are you aware of the interpretation of the same figure of speech in Patagonia?

However, should a figure of speech upset someone's culture or his linguist sensitivity, then he should mention it. And the other person would explain as I have done it in the preceding post.

For instance Friday the 13th is taken to be inauspicious by the Christian world. Is it so in China?

Therefore, the Chinese interpretation in the English language does not matter, unless it is mentioned so and it can always be clarified as I have done.

Please check the dictionary of the meaning of the words you have mentioned. And you will realise that I have explained each one in context of the present regime in China.

Do forgive me, I think I have no inclination to teach you English since my time is equally precious.

You say you are from Hong Kong. Therefore, you should be equipped to understand English!

As far as racism goes, it is your inferiority complex and deep rooted suspicion of the non Chinese world that speaks.

Why blame others for your insecurities and insecure existence! Actually, I feel you realise that what is being said is true and it is only your frustration that speaks. If feel peeved open a thread and we can discuss each.

I have made no attacks as far as I remember. If refuting falsehood and day dreams are attacks, are you suggesting that I should accept those falsehoods as truth?

You may have to show your allegiance to Communist China's diktat, I find no compelling reason to do so!

In the interim, start reading non Communist China newspapers and online stuff so that you understand the world and do a quick course in English so that we are spare teaching the basics of the English Language after each posts we write.

Thank you in anticipation for your cooperation!

**yeung3939** · 01 Aug 08,, 08:52

Originally Posted by Ray

Well, English was my first language, even though not my mother tongue.

I daresay I know it well enough.

As I had said this is an English Language forum and so the interpretation has to be as per the English language and not in Chinese, Hindi or Japanese.

Obviously, you cannot expect me to know the interpretation in all the languages or cultures of the world. I wonder if anyone can claim that he knows all the languages and cultures and interpretation of figures of speech worldwide. Are you aware of the interpretation of the same figure of speech in Patagonia?

However, should a figure of speech upset someone's culture or his linguist sensitivity, then he should mention it. And the other person would explain as I have done it in the preceding post.

You are indeed right. I never intended to accuse you of anything on the basis of your using 'frog in the well'. Just want you to stop using potentially insulting words. Even if 'frog in the well' per se is not insulting, people can still get insulted by being called 'frog in the well' if they actually aren't.

But even if you go for the English version, the claim that Chinese are frogs in the well is not correct.

Most Hong Kong people don't speak good English. It is a shame.

**Ray** · 01 Aug 08,, 09:22

Originally Posted by yeung3939

You are indeed right. I never intended to accuse you of anything on the basis of your using 'frog in the well'. Just want you to stop using potentially insulting words. Even if 'frog in the well' per se is not insulting, people can still get insulted by being called 'frog in the well' if they actually aren't.

But even if you go for the English version, the claim that Chinese are frogs in the well is not correct.

Most Hong Kong people don't speak good English. It is a shame.

You never intended to accuse me, but you did!

Doublespeak!

Sadly, I had to take out my school books to pen my reply so that I was accurate in such a sensitive issue. I normally have my facts well backed with research and that is why I have survived here (remember, IIRC you wondered why I was not banned). In a foreign board one cannot ride his favourite hobby horse without the wherewithal.

Just between you and me, I love the English language and its complexities.

Of course, people can get insulted if they think in their language and culture and try to understand English. Is it the fault of those who understand English, but not the culture of the foreign friend who is insulted at the drop a hat.

As per Pearl S Buck in her book 'Good Earth', in China they do not say a woman is pregnant. They say - she has happiness inside. Now, if you say this anywhere else in the world, they will think you are daft or that she had just had sex! In India, in some areas they say for being pregnant as - her legs have got heavy. A non Indian would think that she has elephantiasis! So, lets not impose our cultures and expect all should know it. Can't show cultural superiority even if it is in our genes!

I sure feel that Chinese are ''frogs in the well'' (in the English interpretation). It is so evident from the posts that you all know so little of the outside world and instead you live in your own world! And worse, you insist we see it your way!

See, you don't even know figures of speech and yet you are ballistics over it thinking that others must know the Chinese interpretation and that too in an English Language forum, where you have come on your own! Apart from cultural arrogance where you demand we should know your culture and interpretation, you insist that we change the English syntax!!

I am sure you can't blame me that the people from Hong Kong don't speak good English! This again shows cultural arrogance where you shied away from learning an alien language. In India, we learnt not only English, but many more good things from the English!

**Ray** · 01 Aug 08,, 09:31

yeung3939

The English language, their culture, their goodness (there are many aberrations) is a passion with me.

It is a different matter that, having lost the Empire, they have gone downhill and are aping Americans.

I am sure you will call me a ''running dog'', but then who cares?

But tarry a bit and think.

You all have embraced the way of life of the ones you hate - Americans!

Indians dislike the British rule, but never hated them!

You are a slave to their (US) concepts and you apply the same with your typical fraudulent doublespeak. Calling your country Communist and being rampant capitalistic including devious wherein fraudulently pirating products and passing it as your own i.e. Daewoo Matiz and calling it Cherry or some such name and many others which Top Hatter can add!!

You are worse than running dogs! (I could have said what you were, but then I constrain myself!)

You have no morality as it appears, though I could be over emphatic!

Note: we do not criticise the British!

Note the way how you have screwed the IOC wherein foreingers are being censored, having promised the world to the IOC!!

**Zeng** · 01 Aug 08,, 13:44

Originally Posted by Ray

They may not vote in the US, but since they are still citizens of the country they come from, they vote for elections of the country they come from. Voting booths are set up at the Consulates and the Embassy/ High Commission.

Therefore, this right continues.

At least, this is applicable to Indians abroad!

Agreed. But for those people, the government that really affect their lives is the US government, US domastic policy and local government, local policy which they don't have the right to vote.

I don't deny that going to the voting booths at the Consulates and the Embassy/ High Commission has some sentimental value

).

**Zeng** · 01 Aug 08,, 13:48

Originally Posted by Ray

Good grief.

"Frog in the well" has no connotation that the Chinese are frogs if that is what you thought.

Maybe it is cultural difference.

It is an English proverb. It is not an insult as such. It means one is happy with one's existence and refuses to look around.

In fact, Mao Tse Tung sums up the issue well:

We think too small, like the frog at the bottom of the well. He thinks the sky is only as big as the top of the well. If he surfaced, he would have an entirely different view.
Mao Tse-Tung
Definition of Frog

Maybe it is cultural difference.

In China, calling someone or a specific group of people "Frog in the well" is definitely a big insult unless it is making jokes between close friends.

Don't know about how other Indians may feel if being called "Frog in the well".

**Zeng** · 01 Aug 08,, 13:53

Originally Posted by yeung3939

First of all, frog in the well is not an English proverb (maybe coincidence? I don't know).

井底之蛙，或稱坐井觀天，是《莊子》「外篇·秋水」中的一則寓言故事。
(The proverb comes from the book "Zhuangzi" written by one of the founders of Daoism as a philosophy, Zhuangzi)

《莊子·秋水》一開始講述了河伯和北海的對話，秋天黃河漲水，河面陡然變寬，寬到連對岸的牛羊都無法看清。河伯洋洋自得，以為自己很了不起，但當其來到入海口看到大海之時，才知道自己何等渺小。北海說道：「井蛙不可以語于海者，拘于虛也」。

本篇其後又講述了井蛙的完整故事，說得是一隻青蛙住在一個陷井[1]之中，一天遇到了一隻來自東海的巨鱉。青蛙對鱉說：「你看我多快樂啊，出去可以在井邊跳來跳去，回來了可以在井里的洞中休息，在水中可以只把頭和嘴巴露出來，還可以把腳踩在軟軟的泥里。那些蝦米、螃蟹、蝌蚪哪個能比得上我？我就是這一井之主，多麼地快樂！你幹嘛不常到井里來看看呢？」那隻巨鱉於是想進到井里，可井卻小得連腳都放不進去。鱉對青蛙說：「你見過大海嗎？其闊何止千里？其深何止千仞？大禹治水之時十年中有九年洪水，也沒有使大海水量增加，商湯之時八年中有七年旱災，海水也沒有減少多少。大海如此不受洪水大旱的影響，這才是住在東海的大快樂呢。」井里的青蛙聽了，驚呆了，方才知道自己所居之地是何等的微不足道。

這則寓言深刻諷刺了沒有見過大世面的人眼界狹小。

This story then appeared again in two other important works: 《荀子》and《後漢書》

It is of course an insult, and was used by those who coined this proverb as insult. Even if you go for the English version, it still has very insulting implication.

Educated Chinese are mostly not frogs in the well. Most uneducated people, including those living in Western countries, are frogs in the well.

yeung,

Good read. I read them long long time ago. Your putting them here gives me good memory of child time. Thanks.

**Ray** · 01 Aug 08,, 18:51

Originally Posted by Zeng

Agreed. But for those people, the government that really affect their lives is the US government, US domastic policy and local government, local policy which they don't have the right to vote.

I don't deny that going to the voting booths at the Consulates and the Embassy/ High Commission has some sentimental value

).

You are right there.

But then no one asked them to go to the USA.

They went there for surely there must have been some good things that lured them there.

No, these chaps regularly come home and then go back after a sojourn!

They have the best of both worlds.

**Ray** · 01 Aug 08,, 18:56

Originally Posted by Zeng

Maybe it is cultural difference.

In China, calling someone or a specific group of people "Frog in the well" is definitely a big insult unless it is making jokes between close friends.

Don't know about how other Indians may feel if being called "Frog in the well".

In India, we say ''kuan ke mendhak''. The meaning is same as English and it is a figure of speech.

Let me give you another example - "Chori aur sinajori''. That mean you steal and then puff out your chest (in pride). The literal mean would be rude, but as a figure of speech, it means you make a mistake and then you try to justify it!!

Well, I did not use frog in the well in the Chinese context since I had no idea about the Chinese context! I still do not understand.

Let us analyse this:

First of all, frog in the well is not an English proverb (maybe coincidence? I don't know).

I also find it amusing the loud protestation of Yeaung that ''frog in the well'' is not an English figure of speech.

First of all, he insists that it is not an English proverb (figure of speech) and then he says he does not know.

If you don't know, how do you insist it is not a English figure of speech!!

This is what I mean by arrogance (call it cultural or whatever) i.e. you are always right and others are just yokels in this global village who should stand in awe of the pearls me cast and should whine with total gratefulness!

Most posters from Mainland China and its territories and recent expatriates has displayed this even when links etc are given. Not by me alone, but by others too!

I have no hassles with China per se, but I find communism as double speak and fooling of the people.

I think I shall comment no more on this issue and lets move on.

**yeung3939** · 02 Aug 08,, 09:12

Originally Posted by Ray

In India, we say ''kuan ke mendhak''. The meaning is same as English and it is a figure of speech.

Let me give you another example - "Chori aur sinajori''. That mean you steal and then puff out your chest (in pride). The literal mean would be rude, but as a figure of speech, it means you make a mistake and then you try to justify it!!

Well, I did not use frog in the well in the Chinese context since I had no idea about the Chinese context! I still do not understand.

Let us analyse this:

I also find it amusing the loud protestation of Yeaung that ''frog in the well'' is not an English figure of speech.

First of all, he insists that it is not an English proverb (figure of speech) and then he says he does not know.

If you don't know, how do you insist it is not a English figure of speech!!

This is what I mean by arrogance (call it cultural or whatever) i.e. you are always right and others are just yokels in this global village who should stand in awe of the pearls me cast and should whine with total gratefulness!

Most posters from Mainland China and its territories and recent expatriates has displayed this even when links etc are given. Not by me alone, but by others too!

I have no hassles with China per se, but I find communism as double speak and fooling of the people.

I think I shall comment no more on this issue and lets move on.

I just forgot to add the word 'only'. Just typos......

Also, I said I didn't intend to accuse you of anything on the basis of 'frog in the well' only. I did accuse you of racism.

**Parihaka** · 02 Aug 08,, 10:33

Originally Posted by yeung3939

I did accuse you of racism.

Yes indeed you did, on several occasions. In fact I don't believe I have read a single post of yours that does not include some form of Argumentum Ad Hominem
.

So, in fifty words or less, and within twenty four hours of the time of this post, tell me why this statement by Mao Tse-Tung is racist towards Chinese.

Originally Posted by Mao Tse-Tung

We think too small, like the frog at the bottom of the well. He thinks the sky is only as big as the top of the well. If he surfaced, he would have an entirely different view.

luffaman · 02 Aug 08,, 14:31

Originally Posted by Parihaka

Yes indeed you did, on several occasions. In fact I don't believe I have read a single post of yours that does not include some form of Argumentum Ad Hominem
.

So, in fifty words or less, and within twenty four hours of the time of this post, tell me why this statement by Mao Tse-Tung is racist towards Chinese.

pari, things are getting rough now.

it may be very inappropriate for me to say so:
we usually don't call self-haters or self-criticizers racists, mao's statement is more or less a self-hater's or self-criticizers statement.

like you usually don't call me a racist even some of my statements quite match, instead you can call me an extreme nationalist, that is a pc word used for racist from developing country like china or india.

i don't know why it has to be so complicated, but those kinds of political etiquettes are created by developed countries, there has to be some sense in it. so i try my best to follow that etiquettes.

it is just if someone keep picking on you with some harsh words including commie, and you will have very limited ammunition due to your newbee status, so a word "racist" looks like a safe grenade to throw back, but now obviously some people with embolden title get pissed, it is time that we have to say goodbye to that cute "r" word.

can you recommend some spicy weapons that can be safely and legally used by mainland chinese wabber?

ray, if i get banned for this, please say a few nice words for me, an uneducated peasant and illegal boatman.

and troung, post some nice pics after my last post if this is the one, you will do me a epic favor by drawing some attention to a narcissist like me.
you two will be missed by me.....

i am well prepared....
titanic theme music "my heart will go on" fade in.....
overvoice: i am a lover not a fighter.....
music fade out....
the end....

**Ray** · 02 Aug 08,, 19:43

Originally Posted by Zeng

Agreed. But for those people, the government that really affect their lives is the US government, US domastic policy and local government, local policy which they don't have the right to vote.

I don't deny that going to the voting booths at the Consulates and the Embassy/ High Commission has some sentimental value

).

You see when you go to a country even with the explicit aim of getting a citizenship, it is never a guaranteed thing. Further, if you go to a foreign country, it does not mean you get the same rights as the citizens of that country. You are aware of that. Therefore, while you basic human rights are protected, all rights of a citizen of that country i.e. voting is not.

Further, the person going to that country is well aware of the environment and he choose voluntarily to go there. It is not his business in the interim to think he will change the local etc rules.

Let us take the example of China and supposing they allowed foreigners to become citizens of China. I go there and I start campaigning against the CCP without even being a citizen, when the actual citizens don't care a damn about what the CCP does, that surely will not be acceptable by either the Chinese people or the CCP. And yet, I can claim that I am a great soldier to bring democracy to China. That surely is not basic human right. Can I then claim that my basic human right to change China and free the people has been denied? I don't think so.