Indian Navy to Expand Bluewater Capabilities - Page 2

Yusuf · 07-06-2008, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stupid

i'd put this other way. what are the chances...when operated by IN?

are you doubting the ability of the IN?

bengalraider · 07-06-2008, 05:29 AM

WHAT

this link says that the indian navy plans to convert it's scorpene to nuclear propulsion if feasible is this guy on dope or is this actually planned

Skywatcher · 07-06-2008, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Sorry OOE,

That doesn't jive with the history. Remember that India leased a Charlie boat from USSR. During that lease, India practiced weapons release and there were some wear and tear among the boat.

Well, the USSR probably charged the IN a pretty penny then, especially considering the financial straits they were in at the time.

**Officer of Engineers** · 07-06-2008, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blademaster

Sorry OOE,

That doesn't jive with the history. Remember that India leased a Charlie boat from USSR. During that lease, India practiced weapons release and there were some wear and tear among the boat.

I said that wear and tear has to be addressed. It means that India have to pay for bring the boat back to the condition before the start of the lease and that work may have to be done in a Russian yard.

bengalraider · 07-06-2008, 07:46 AM

apparently this time around both akulas are going to be manned by an entirely indian crew weapons and all, also there is an option to buy them.
Project 971 Shuka-B Akula class
Nuclear subs on lease from Russia to India - Bellona

Quote:

Project 971 Shuka-B Akula class
On 5 December 2000 India announced new negotiations with Russia to lease a nuclear-powered attack submarine. The goal was to retain the familiarization with nuclear propulsion gained during the three-year lease of the Chakra. India’s interest in leasing a pair of Type 971 SSNs was based in part on the slow progress in the Advanced Technology Vessel. Reports are in conflict as to whether the submarines in question are the improved Akula or the Akula-II. As of 2000 there were a pair of both types in a state of partial completion. By 2007 the discussion of the state of completion of the vessels contemplated for lease strongly suggested that they would be the improved Akula Nerpa, laid down in 1986, and Kaban, laid down in 1992.

As of November 2001 it was reported that the the terms of lease for a single Akula II/Schuka-B class nuclear-powered submarine had been finalized in September 2001. The submarine, to be leased for three years at a price of $25 million for it, was expected to arrive in Vishakapatnam in early 2002. However, as of February 2002 the Russian submarines were slated to begin service in the Indian Navy in 2004 under a five-year lease. India was to help finance the construction of the two new Akula class boats with the proceeds allowing Russia to complete the first Type 855 SSN. At that time no agreement had been reached on the transfer of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, the proposed lease of two Akulas, or the purchase of four Tu-22M Backfire bombers.

As of mid-2002 the Indian Ministry of Defence was saying little about a move to lease-purchase two Project 971 class nuclear submarines from Russia. But negotiations were reported to be at an advanced stage and India's commitment could include providing money to enable Russia to complete construction work on the subs. The subs in question were believed at that time to be of the Project 971 improved Akula-II class.

On 20 January 2004 India finalized the purchase of the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov after over a decade of negotiations. But Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov and Indian Defense Minister George Fernandes did not reach agreement on other weapons, such as the Tu-22 Backfire bombers or Akula-class nuclear submarines.

By mid-2005 India appeared set to get at least two Akula class subs on lease — with the option to buy them— from Russia by end of 2005. The construction of a training center for the Indian defence officers in Sosnovy Bor, west of St Petersburg, confirmed Russia’s intentions to lease nuclear submarines to India. The international center started training 300 Indian Naval officers by mid-September 2005. This number suggested 4 Akula crews (2 on, 2 off duty rotations.) The leasing/buying of Akulas would train crews and augment force levels as the ATV goes into serial production.

As of 2005, the two Akulas, one said to be 70-85% complete and the other said to be 40-60% complete, were estimated to cost India some $400m. The leasing costs would amount to some $25m a year. The construction of both submarines and training of the crews could run up to around $2 billion.

These submarines are to be manned entirely by Indian crew. In August 2005 Bellona Web reported evidence of construction of a nuclear submarine training center for the Indian Navy in Sosnovy Bor, 70 kilometers west of St. Petersburg in Russia. The training center, large enough to train 300 submariners, was built following the visit of Russian President Vladamir Putin to India in December 2004. By 2007 there were reports that nearly 300 Indian naval personnel, or three sets of crews, had trained to operate the submarine the training facility in Sosnovy Bor. These personnel were reported to have returned to India in early 2007, after completion of training.

By late 2007 the two sides were said to be set to seal an agreement for the lease of two Akula class nuclear submarines to India. This agreement was to be the high point of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's visit to Moscow on 10 November 2007, a reminder of the heyday of the Indo-Russian relationship. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh went to Moscow on a two-day visit, and nothing was publicly agreed. The visit was expected to envisage upgrading the predominant buyer-seller relationship between India and Russia in the defense sector to a new level of joint partnership for co-developing state-of-the-art future weaponries.

The Akulas were to be delivered to the Indian Navy in 2008 on a lease of at least seven years, and up to ten years. This acquisition was to help the Indian Navy prepare for the induction of the ATV, India's long-delayed indigenous nuclear-powered submarine, set for for sea trials in 2009. The cost to India of acquiring two Akula submarines and their support infrastructure along with training of the crews had been estimated at $2 billion. Other estimates suggested that the deal, which could be worth over Rs 2,000 crore, about $500 million to $650 million dollars.

Russia reportedly intended to use the money from the Indian lease to complete two Akula class submarines, long under construction at the Amur Shipbuilding yard. One of them [the Nerpa] was 70 to 85 percent complete, while the other one [Kaban] is 40 to 60 percent complete [other earlier reports had suggested that Kaban was only 25% complete].

The first of these two submarines was reportedly planned to be named INS Chakra. In January 1988 India had arranged a three-year transfer of a Charlie-I class nuclear attack submarine from the Soviet Union, also named Chakra. The word comes from the Sanskrit "cakra" meaning "wheel, circle", and sometimes also referring to the "wheel of life". The Indian flag is a familiar horizontal tricolor of orange, white, and green, with a blue Ashoka Chakra with 24 spokes at the center. In Hinduism and its spiritual systems of yoga a chakra is thought to be an energy node in the human body. The seven main chakras are described as being aligned in an ascending column from the base of the spine to the top of the head. The flag code of India from the official Home Ministry website of the Indian government states that "The Ashoka Wheel in the centre of the white is the wheel of the law of dharma. Truth or satya, dharma or virtue ought to be the controlling principles of those who work under this flag. Again, the wheel denotes motion. There is death in stagnation. There is life in movement. India should no more resist change, it must move and go forward. The wheel represents the dynamism of a peaceful change."

**Officer of Engineers** · 07-06-2008, 16:59 PM

I have absolutely no idea how the Russians did this but the AKULA is not listed as a nuclear weapons platform.

If anyone can explain this loop hole to me, please.

Blademaster · 07-07-2008, 00:12 AM

They are not carrying nuclear weapons?

Oneday · 07-07-2008, 01:30 AM

AKULA is a class of nuclear attack submarine, which means it doesn’t fitted with array of vertical launching tubes for Ballistic Missiles, like a ballistic missile submarine does.

In theory it is still able to launch a cruise missile with nuclear warhead from its torpedo tube, but the range and devastating power can’t be compared with ICBM (and India has to get it first.) But this doesn’t make it a nuclear weapons platform, otherwise there will be a lot of things can be considered nuclear weapons platform.

**Officer of Engineers** · 07-07-2008, 01:49 AM

SSNs were included in arms control talks between the US and the USSR as did dual purpose systems such as the F-4 and the F-14s and the BACKFIREs. If you recall there was a heavy argument between the US and the USSR to consider the BACKFIREs as strategic or tactical systems.

It's been a while since I stop following the nuances of new treaties. SALT I and II included these systems. I don't know if SORT relies on the old definitions. I could not find any mention of them in SORT.

At this point, I am lost as to what the classifications of dual purpose systems are and whether arms control agreements still define them at all.

Oneday · 07-07-2008, 03:32 AM

START_I
START_II
SORT

I didn't see they mentioned muclear attack submarines.

bengalraider · 07-07-2008, 03:44 AM

what is interesting is the technologies indian scientists can garner from the akula2 and use in the ATV , already ther has been much speculation of russian involvement in the project, with reports suggetsting the indian ATV may be a modified version of an akula or a sverodinsk class vessel.

Quote:

Blueprint of Severodvinsk-class?
According to Russky Telegraph, the hulls of the submarines laid down in India (ATV) are almost blueprints of the newest Russian attack submarine, the Severodvinsk-class, which is currently under construction in Severodvinsk, Arkhangel'sk County. Indian submarines reportedly will be outfitted with one PWR reactor with a power output of 190 MW. The same machinery is placed on the Severodvinsk-class submarine.

The Severodvinsk is a state-of-the art submarine that allegedly is so quiet that it eliminates the United States technical lead in this area, and it is armed with the new 650mm Shkval rocket that travels at 200 knots underwater

A group of Indian officers in Severodvinsk
Few years agp, a group of Indian officers arrived to Severodvinsk and settled down on Yagry island where Zvezdochka shipyard is located. Across the bay, Sevmash shipbuilding yard carries out construction of Severodvinsk-class submarines. Official returns suggest that the reason for the visit was repair works on one of the Russian Kilo-class submarines exported to India. Repairs on the submarine has been continuing for almost one year. As funding comes smoothly from India, the repair takes suspiciously long time. Put together, all the facts mentioned above give grounds to speculate that the co-operation between Russian and India on nuclear-powered submarines construction is much closer than thought before.

Is India financing half the construction cost of the Severodvinsk and Borey class nuclear submarine??

as well as the two Type 971 Akula's and is then going to lease them for a few years before buying them outright

India, Russia & Advanced Nuclear Subs [Archive] - Defence Talk Forum

this one is too long to copy
The Great Indian Chessboard (Monthly Review - November 2005)

Skywatcher · 07-07-2008, 04:51 AM

Is Indian metallurgy up to the task, though?

Colonel, is it all right with you if I reference your PMs to me?

**Officer of Engineers** · 07-07-2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oneday

START_I
START_II
SORT

I didn't see they mentioned muclear attack submarines.

As usual, online sources don't contain the entire treaty and subsequent definitions and agreements. Take a look at the signing ceremonies, they were signing entire books.

**Officer of Engineers** · 07-07-2008, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skywatcher

Is Indian metallurgy up to the task, though?

Colonel, is it all right with you if I reference your PMs to me?

These would be made in Russia

Oneday · 07-07-2008, 14:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

As usual, online sources don't contain the entire treaty and subsequent definitions and agreements. Take a look at the signing ceremonies, they were signing entire books.

But those article do give me a impression that what is in force now is SORT and it's limitation based on number of nuclear warhead. I mean the START II though signed, never been put into force.

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07-06-2008, 05:29 AM	#17 (permalink)
bengalraider Contributor Join Date: 06-10-08 Location: new delhi Posts: 718 Country:	WHAT this link says that the indian navy plans to convert it's scorpene to nuclear propulsion if feasible is this guy on dope or is this actually planned

07-06-2008, 16:59 PM	#21 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 16,673 Country:	I have absolutely no idea how the Russians did this but the AKULA is not listed as a nuclear weapons platform. If anyone can explain this loop hole to me, please.

07-07-2008, 00:12 AM	#22 (permalink)
Blademaster Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-15-03 Posts: 3,196	They are not carrying nuclear weapons?

07-07-2008, 01:30 AM	#23 (permalink)
Oneday New Member Join Date: 07-05-08 Posts: 22 Country:	AKULA is a class of nuclear attack submarine, which means it doesn’t fitted with array of vertical launching tubes for Ballistic Missiles, like a ballistic missile submarine does. In theory it is still able to launch a cruise missile with nuclear warhead from its torpedo tube, but the range and devastating power can’t be compared with ICBM (and India has to get it first.) But this doesn’t make it a nuclear weapons platform, otherwise there will be a lot of things can be considered nuclear weapons platform.

07-07-2008, 01:49 AM	#24 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 16,673 Country:	SSNs were included in arms control talks between the US and the USSR as did dual purpose systems such as the F-4 and the F-14s and the BACKFIREs. If you recall there was a heavy argument between the US and the USSR to consider the BACKFIREs as strategic or tactical systems. It's been a while since I stop following the nuances of new treaties. SALT I and II included these systems. I don't know if SORT relies on the old definitions. I could not find any mention of them in SORT. At this point, I am lost as to what the classifications of dual purpose systems are and whether arms control agreements still define them at all.

07-07-2008, 03:32 AM	#25 (permalink)
Oneday New Member Join Date: 07-05-08 Posts: 22 Country:	START_I START_II SORT I didn't see they mentioned muclear attack submarines.

07-07-2008, 04:51 AM	#27 (permalink)
Skywatcher Contributor Join Date: 03-14-08 Posts: 446	Is Indian metallurgy up to the task, though? Colonel, is it all right with you if I reference your PMs to me?

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