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Old 07-02-2008, 18:45 PM   #31 (permalink)
Sumku
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Originally Posted by antimony View Post
Sumit,

The threat, however, is very real. In a democracy it is failry easy to envisage situations where the public, disgusted by corruption and apathy in public life, yearn for a strong leader who will delivery change. The next step is for that leader to "temporarily" suspend civil rights, assume emergency powers and generally make the elected bodies impotent. People actually welcome these changes and its all downhill from there. This is even easier if there is some "external threat" perspective. This is not fiction, this happened to ancitent rome and to Pre-WW2 Germany. It happens to Pakistan with depressing regularity and it happened to us during the Emergency years.

This is why citizens of a democracy cannot afford to get complacent about their rights and duties under the democratic process and need to understand the pitfalls of other political systems.
I fully agree with you here, but just one thing that I would like to say is that none of what you mentioned had anything like EC that we have here.

I'll try to put it in 2 box's
Box 1) Someone attains the power wherein there are no elections
Box 2) Someone is able to rig the elections

Now 1 is possible only during times of threats wherein holding elections is not a possibility and this time frame would not be more than 1 year at the max[consider war happenning at the time of elections]

2) Not possible unless ass$$$$$ are elected and such people manning EC is very less. Possible but very very very less.

I am quite hopefull that India would still be Democratic Nation a long time after I am gone.We will be continue to be a democratic country and would continue to do good.

Aberrations like Emergency might or might not happen depending on the person in power on that day but these would stay just that - an aberration.
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Old 07-02-2008, 19:22 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Actually, it was not the people who toppled him, they supported him tooth and nail even then; it was his own stupidity and warmongering personality which led to his fall.
What about the German jews? One can of course argues that the German jews are not actually citizens after the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws (specifically "The Reich Citizenship Law" Nuremberg Laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), but that arguement does not hold any water with me.
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Old 07-02-2008, 19:24 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Aberrations like Emergency might or might not happen depending on the person in power on that day but these would stay just that - an aberration.
Raising my glass (of clear water, of course) to that...
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Old 07-02-2008, 19:29 PM   #34 (permalink)
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What about the German jews? One can of course argues that the German jews are not actually citizens after the promulgation of the Nuremberg Laws (specifically "The Reich Citizenship Law" Nuremberg Laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), but that arguement does not hold any water with me.
What about the German Jews?
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Old 07-02-2008, 23:56 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Hitesh, you must also realize, not all are you. Modi doesn't have the best of image with a lot of people. And if my power to vote and topple the leaders I dislike is taken away from me, there would definetly be a problem. Similarly, you may not get a leader that you like leading you. What do you do then?
You mistake my intent. I do not intend anyone to be a dictator. If there was a choice for PM, Modi is among my top because he is very able leader and get things done with political acumen. Given a chance, he can do great things for the country.

I will never support someone who wants to be a dictator but I will not support a person who is incompetent to lead the nation or be a party leader such as Sonia Gandhi or Arjun Singh or the commie leaders or Laloo Yadav.
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Old 07-03-2008, 00:22 AM   #36 (permalink)
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You mistake my intent. I do not intend anyone to be a dictator. If there was a choice for PM, Modi is among my top because he is very able leader and get things done with political acumen. Given a chance, he can do great things for the country.
Yea, right. He's proved his "leadership" during the Gujarat riots-if he's given the top job, he'll do it on a national level. That guy should be in jail, not in Parliament.
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Old 07-03-2008, 00:41 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Yea, right. He's proved his "leadership" during the Gujarat riots-if he's given the top job, he'll do it on a national level. That guy should be in jail, not in Parliament.
and your leaders have shown their "leadership" over the Nandigargh massacre and the Bangledesh illegal immigrants influx and relations with China

Your commie leaders should be in jail for deliberate subversion of democracy and treason to India.

Furthermore, Congress leaders have shown their leadership over the Sikh massacre.
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Old 07-03-2008, 01:29 AM   #38 (permalink)
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and your leaders have shown their "leadership" over the Nandigargh massacre and the Bangledesh illegal immigrants influx and relations with China

Your commie leaders should be in jail for deliberate subversion of democracy and treason to India.
They're not "my" leaders. I am not idiotic enough to support those who engage in massacares of civilians for the job of PM.

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Furthermore, Congress leaders have shown their leadership over the Sikh massacre.
Exactly. And I don't advocate Tytler for the job of PM either.

Only a madman or an idiot would call for Modi to be PM.
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Old 07-03-2008, 07:46 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I would call him look .He has great will power .look at the amount of opposition he faced in the state election everyone in media and politics opposed him
but look the people of gujarat voted for him
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:04 AM   #40 (permalink)
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They're not "my" leaders. I am not idiotic enough to support those who engage in massacares of civilians for the job of PM.



Exactly. And I don't advocate Tytler for the job of PM either.

Only a madman or an idiot would call for Modi to be PM.
I am not idiotic to blame those who had no hand in the engagement of massacre of civilians nor idiotic to look away from those who deliberately spread rumors that has no substantiation in fact.

There has been investigations by the CBI and the Congress who wanted to take down Modi. Guess what? They couldn't find any direct involvment of Modi in the massacre. Modi only failed to control the riot for three days as it exploded beyond his control and the police control.

By the way,
Only an idiot or madman would call for more communism in the guise of socialism when it is clear that socialism or communism doesn't work.

Modi is the only one who recognizes this and brought more prosperity on Gujarat citizens and people. His state practically leads on all fronts in every measurable index except for education. But that is changing too. All of this while rest of India lags behind because of the socialism monkey hanging on their backs.

Modi is the most progressive of all. Compared to the leaders we have now, Modi is the best one of all.
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:25 AM   #41 (permalink)
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1)In 1952 Potti Sri ramulu fasted untill death for creation of state for Telgu speaking people.It was his death led to the creation of Andhra Pradesh and provided the basis for organising the states on linguistic basis.
2)In 1965 DMK launched anti hindi agitations.
3)The sikhs getting a state


In all these 3 instances governemnt at the centre was acting without taking ground realities in mind which led to these agitations
For example Nehru was completely opposed to organisation of states on linguistic basis.
Hindi was to become the sole national language in 1965.
Nehru was opposed to giving sikhs a state.

Had there been a dictatorship at the centre the government would have tried to suppress the agitation. This would have only added the fuel to fire and it would have dangerous consequences for Indian unity. I dont think DMK would have remained commited to India had English not survived as an option in Government communication and examinations.

It was the fact that India was a democracy that allowed the society and government to realise the intensity of the situation and modify their positions which has allowed India to survive.
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:07 AM   #42 (permalink)
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No vote from me to dictatorship.After all INDEPENDENCE COUNTS.Thinking of a dictator like Gen.Yahya Khan,it is the fortune of China that he got good leaders and politicians which lead him to success.We only need good leaders.
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:22 AM   #43 (permalink)
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India needs an enlightened despot.Democracy works fine but If we need real progress we need a dictatorship or a leader like INDHIRA GANDHI who got real
GURS
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:27 AM   #44 (permalink)
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we need a dictatorship or a leader like INDHIRA GANDHI who got real
GURS
Actually,we need a dictator like INDIRA GANDHI.
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Old 07-03-2008, 10:51 AM   #45 (permalink)
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India needs an enlightened despot.Democracy works fine but If we need real progress we need a dictatorship or a leader like INDHIRA GANDHI who got real
GURS
You are ingnoring a Golden Rule abut Despots. History is full of people who occupied power with noble intents but got corrupted by the power that they enjoyed.

Dont Forget that "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely". We need strong leaders, but who get elected and who can be removed/impeached.

I totally agree with Hitesh, that we need people like Modi at the helm[definitely not Advani] but if and when he becomes unruly, we the masses should have the power to take him out.

Despite all what Modi might have done in Gujrat vis-a-vis Progrom's against Muslims, he had a tough time in this election. Had it not been for Sonia's Remarks calling him "Maut Ka Saudagar[Merchant of Death], Congress and not BJP would have been at the power in Gujrat now.

Plain and simple, elect strong leaders but have power to impeach them office.
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