India test-fires N-powered water baby K-15 - Page 6

Deltacamelately · 03-07-2008, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

What enemy are you talking about. Let me put it to you this way. Any Indian SSBN that dares to come close to North America would be extremely scare of the Canadians. By the same token, the British and French would also be hearing your SSBNs before you left port.

A formidable Enemy. Could be anyone...you name it. And I doubt that SSBNs won't make any diference just because there lies a probability to be heard.

Quote:

And before you all get up and giddy about taking on China - some facts. The Chinese nuclear weapons program is decades older than India's. While it is estimated that they have only about 200 warheads, they can expand production a lot faster than India. They have the stocks ready as allowed by the NPT ... and they have 900 rockets (most of them aimed at Taiwan) that can fit a nuke on it. India has lost this race long before it began.

Makes my desire for SSBNs even more logical.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-08-2008, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltacamelately

A formidable Enemy. Could be anyone...you name it. And I doubt that SSBNs won't make any diference just because there lies a probability to be heard.

What? Sorry, Major, that makes absolutely no sense. You don't procure weapons systems on a maybe. You procure systems with a specific tasking and specific missions in mind. If you cannot identify them and clearly state their intent, then you're wasting money. Number one rule in procurement. If you cannot state exactly what you want, you will get exactly what you don't want. That is why your RFPs are so important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zraver

Makes my desire for SSBNs even more logical.

You still would have lost that race before the 1st SSBN got in the water and what for? The Chinese wouldn't be nuking you in a 1st strike. They've got conventional rockets to do that job.

kuku · 03-08-2008, 05:24 AM

And i thought a navy was developed for the future.

Deltacamelately · 03-08-2008, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

What? Sorry, Major, that makes absolutely no sense. You don't procure weapons systems on a maybe. You procure systems with a specific tasking and specific missions in mind. If you cannot identify them and clearly state their intent, then you're wasting money. Number one rule in procurement. If you cannot state exactly what you want, you will get exactly what you don't want. That is why your RFPs are so important.

I agree that I won't go for a system based on probability.
But Sir, I said I "Doubt" that SSBNs won't make a difference...because
my understanding says that SSBNs really do provide a credible second strike capability.

Quote:

You still would have lost that race before the 1st SSBN got in the water and what for? The Chinese wouldn't be nuking you in a 1st strike. They've got conventional rockets to do that job.

Who says they would do? But again...they are the only ones who believe in firing salvos...and I have serious doubts that they have the political or military will do that against a country like India. And about the nuclear front...Okay! I still believe that to match their bigger nuclear warhead arsenal...SSBNs lurking underwater would really be a good detente.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-08-2008, 08:35 AM

Major, why 10-15? You still have not explain the rational for that number? 3-4 more than provides a credible 2nd strike. Even 2 would do.

Deltacamelately · 03-08-2008, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

Major, why 10-15? You still have not explain the rational for that number? 3-4 more than provides a credible 2nd strike. Even 2 would do.

Sir, I have a feeling that some people here have an uneasy feeling when the volumes or variables are high enough to start thinking what India wants...US?
No...we after such a long period have come this close. But when I am planning detente...I have to plan for every contingency....even the US...or even Russia...anyone...and Sir, I am not confident, with 2 or 3 SSBNs you could take a chance with a Force like the US....10-12 would make things difficult for even the US to confidently take out all of them and give us a confident 2nd strike capability.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-08-2008, 08:55 AM

ONLY IF India got the screens for them to hide behind. If not, you can go up to 40 SSBNs and the USN would sink them before they get into launch position. I have ZERO confidence that India could ever get them quiet enough to the point that they can slip past USN sub killers. In short, by your very own definitions, you've just went from 10-15 SSBNs to to 10-15 task force groups.

But if you have a task force group, you guarantee a 2nd strike, even against the US. So, why the 10-15?

Deltacamelately · 03-08-2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

ONLY IF India got the screens for them to hide behind. If not, you can go up to 40 SSBNs and the USN would sink them before they get into launch position. I have ZERO confidence that India could ever get them quiet enough to the point that they can slip past USN sub killers. In short, by your very own definitions, you've just went from 10-15 SSBNs to to 10-15 task force groups.

But if you have a task force group, you guarantee a 2nd strike, even against the US. So, why the 10-15?

Point taken. But why would a nation which deploys 10-15 SSBNs expose them or make them so noisy? Why can't it delegate somebody to provide the necessary screens? If its technology...I wont argue cause I don't have a first hand knowledge...otherwise I still imagine...why not?

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-08-2008, 11:51 AM

Because at some point, Major, reality sets in. Otherwise, why stop at 15 SSBNs. Hell, I want the Battlestar Galactica.

gamercube · 03-08-2008, 15:02 PM

Sir,

How do you then explain this?

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | the Daily Mail

If China can do it, I don't think India will have too many problems either.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-08-2008, 15:51 PM

Easy. The Chinese didn't have to move. They waited for the Americans in their declared exercise area.

gamercube · 03-08-2008, 15:58 PM

Sir,

That's not what the article says. It says:

Quote:

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

And regardless of whether it moved or not, would it not have been picked up on American SONAR/RADAR systems? You don't need an object to move to be detected that way.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-08-2008, 16:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamercube

Sir,

That's not what the article says. It says:

They were already in the area when the Americans arrive. That was the point. They did not have to hunt the Americans. The Americans came to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamercube

And regardless of whether it moved or not, would it not have been picked up on American SONAR/RADAR systems? You don't need an object to move to be detected that way.

Nobody was looking for anything. Setting for an exercise is one of the most busiest times. You have to clear civilian traffic who may or may not get the message to leave. People have to get into position. Safety protocals got to be send out, including weapons safe. What the article left out was that the SOONG Captain surfaced because the sonar stuff was getting way too close for his comfort.

gamercube · 03-08-2008, 16:19 PM

Quote:

They were already in the area when the Americans arrive. That was the point. They did not have to hunt the Americans. The Americans came to them.

My understanding was that the Chinese sub sailed towards the US fleet, not the other way around, as the following line says:

Quote:

The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

Also, if what you say is true, then why did this incident cause such a big embarassment to the US Navy? As the article says,

Quote:

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-08-2008, 18:01 PM

GC,

The incident has been examined to death. It was a shock but not that big of a shock. What the Chinese have done is what the Canadians, British, and Australians have being doing for decades, getting past the screens in an ambush requires reading the Americans right. If you know where they're going to be, then it is very doable ... that is IF you know where they're going.

What was surprising, which should not be in hindsight, was the Chinese were operating that far out without escourts.

03-08-2008, 08:55 AM	#82 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 16,654 Country:	ONLY IF India got the screens for them to hide behind. If not, you can go up to 40 SSBNs and the USN would sink them before they get into launch position. I have ZERO confidence that India could ever get them quiet enough to the point that they can slip past USN sub killers. In short, by your very own definitions, you've just went from 10-15 SSBNs to to 10-15 task force groups. But if you have a task force group, you guarantee a 2nd strike, even against the US. So, why the 10-15? Last edited by Officer of Engineers : 03-08-2008 at 08:58 AM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
An insight into the US argument for the nuke deal	Asim Aquil	Political Discussions	12	07-29-2008 05:15 AM
Pakistan Economy	Neo	Political Discussions	3653	11-06-2007 10:30 AM
Indian engineers good only at theory: Microsoft	lumbakhumba	International Politics	84	06-06-2007 12:46 PM
World Bank report on Pakistan water resources: Water economy: running dry	Ray	Political Discussions	2	01-19-2006 17:35 PM
Pak may build up to 50-110 nuclear bombs by year-end: Study	Neo	South Asian Defense Topics	204	08-31-2005 11:18 AM

03-08-2008, 05:24 AM	#78 (permalink)
kuku Contributor Join Date: 02-28-08 Location: delhi Posts: 714 Country:	And i thought a navy was developed for the future.

03-08-2008, 08:35 AM	#80 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 16,654 Country:	Major, why 10-15? You still have not explain the rational for that number? 3-4 more than provides a credible 2nd strike. Even 2 would do.

03-08-2008, 11:51 AM	#84 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 16,654 Country:	Because at some point, Major, reality sets in. Otherwise, why stop at 15 SSBNs. Hell, I want the Battlestar Galactica.

03-08-2008, 15:02 PM	#85 (permalink)
gamercube Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-20-06 Location: Barbados Posts: 771 Country:	Sir, How do you then explain this? The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced \| the Daily Mail If China can do it, I don't think India will have too many problems either.

03-08-2008, 15:51 PM	#86 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 16,654 Country:	Easy. The Chinese didn't have to move. They waited for the Americans in their declared exercise area.

03-08-2008, 18:01 PM	#90 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 16,654 Country:	GC, The incident has been examined to death. It was a shock but not that big of a shock. What the Chinese have done is what the Canadians, British, and Australians have being doing for decades, getting past the screens in an ambush requires reading the Americans right. If you know where they're going to be, then it is very doable ... that is IF you know where they're going. What was surprising, which should not be in hindsight, was the Chinese were operating that far out without escourts.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)