India test-fires N-powered water baby K-15 - Page 5

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-02-2008, 21:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FullTank

Do you expect sometime in future a point to reach where Nato wouldn't care about Pakistan's opinion anymore and would really appreciate Indian boots in Afghanistan?

The only time I can see such an event is a complete and successful uprising by Taliban Pakistanis against Islamabad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FullTank

How would Nato respond with a official Pakistan pullout from the War on Terror then and blame it on Indian deployment in Afghanistan?

We have a lot more to worry about than the blame game, like making sure Islamabad doesn't fall.

kams · 03-02-2008, 21:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Officer of Engineers

The only time I can see such an event is a complete and successful uprising by Taliban Pakistanis against Islamabad.

We have a lot more to worry about than the blame game, like making sure Islamabad doesn't fall.

Sir, what about the supply lines to NATO in Afghanistan?

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-02-2008, 22:00 PM

We've already got the 'Stans. That's how Canada arrived. And at that point, I think we can even count on China opening her 40 mile border to contain the spill over.

gamercube · 03-02-2008, 22:00 PM

Quote:

Where the hell have you been? Canada is one of only three countries actively in combat. If Canada leaves now, Khandahar is lost. Period.

Are you sure? The following says otherwise:

International Security Assistance Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

NATO nations

* Flag of Belgium Belgium – 370 (as of February 2008). The mission is named BELU ISAF 15. Their main task is to provide security at Kabul International Airport, while detachments (KUNDUZ 16) assist in the northern PRTs of Kunduz and Mazari Sharif. There are also plans to deploy four F-16s with about 140 support personnel in late 2008, wich would operate from Kandahar Airport.[citation needed]

* Flag of Bulgaria Bulgaria – 420 (as of February 2008). In 2007 Bulgaria sent 200 more soldiers.

* Flag of Canada Canada – 2500 in Kandahar (as of February 2008). Canadian forces have been actively engaged in fighting the Taliban in the dangerous South and have suffered a high proportion of the allied casualties.

* Flag of the Czech Republic Czech Republic – 135 troops involved in three operations, as of February 2008. The largest unit was deployed to Kabul in March 2007 and consists of eighty-three medical staff manning a field hospital, a thirteen-man Chemical detachment, and three military policmen. A further ninety-one troops operate alongside Danish and German troops in the provincial reconstruction team at Fayzabad in Badakhshan province, where Czech forces have been situated since 9 March 2005. A third contingent was sent to Afghanistan at the end of April 2007, and involves 35 members of the Czech military police, who are attached to British forces in the Southern Helmand province.[12]

* Flag of Denmark Denmark – 780 as of February 2008 [13]. The main part of the Danish military contribution consists of a battle group, which is currently operating with British and Estonian forces in the Green Zone in the central part of the Helmand Province in southern Afghanistan. The battle group consists of mechanized infantry, a light recce squadron and a tank platoon for fire support and observation. The battle group also consists of combat support and support units. In the nearby Kandahar Province troops from the Royal Danish Air Force takes part in manning the Kandahar Airfield Crisis Establishment (KAF CE), which is running the airfield. But Danish troops are also deployed o other parts of Afghanistan. In northern Afghanistan app. twenty troops are serving in the German led PRT in Feyzabad. In western Afghanistan ten troops are serving in the Lithuanian led PRT in Chagcharan. There is also a small contribution to HQ ISAF in Kabul and to the staffing of Kabul International Airport. In Helmand Danish troops are involved in the worst fighting their armed forces have undertaken since the Second War of Schleswig. Denmark has lost nine soldiers in Afghanistan since 2002. Six have been killed in the Helmand province since May 2007, three engineer soldiers were killed in Kabul in 2002 when trying to disarm an old Soviet missile.

* Flag of Estonia Estonia – 130 troops as of February 2008. The majority of Estonian troops have been deployed to PRT Lashkar-Gah in the southern province of Helmand, together with the forces of the United Kingdom and Denmark [14].

* Flag of France France – 1,515 as of February 2008. The French forces are deployed in Kabul under operation Pamir XVII, a recurrent five-month deployment that was last renewed in December 2007. Six French Mirage 2000D fighters and two C-135F refuelling aircraft were based at Dushanbe airport, Tajikistan but relocated to Kandahar on 26 September 2007; from there they conduct operations in support of ISAF. A French naval force, including the Charles de Gaulle (R 91) aircraft carrier, was also situated in the nearby Indian Ocean. An assortment of 200 naval, air force and army special forces personnel were withdrawn from Southern Afghanistan in early 2007, but around 50 remained to train Afghan forces. On February 26, 2008 it was reported that Paris was planning to deploy hundreds of fresh troops to eastern Afghanistan in an attempt to free up American soldiers, who would then be able to assist their Canadian neighbours in the flashpoint southern province of Kandahar[15]. The deployment would mark a significant change in French policy in Afghanistan, as French soldiers, like many of their European counterparts, are highly constrained in their ability to engage the Taliban by caveats.

* Flag of Germany Germany – 3,210 as of February 2008, making Germany the third largest troop contributor to ISAF. Germany leads Regional Command North, which is based in Mazar i Sharif. The task of German forces is to assist the Afghan government with security and reconstruction in the four northern provinces of Kunduz, Takhar, Baghlan and Badakhshan. Germany leads the Provincial Reconstruction Teams in the provinces of Kunduz and Badakhshan. A number of German troops are stationed at a supply and staging base in Uzbekistan (these are included in the troop figure). Additionally, in April 2007, six Panavia Tornado reconnaissance jets, with 188 corresponding personnel (also included), were deployed to Mazar i Sharif in support of ISAF combat operations in the country. [16]. The mandate issued by the German Parliament, does not allow the Bundeswehr to take part in combat operations against the Taliban insurgency in the south and east of Afghanistan, other than in exceptional circumstances. As of February 2008, 26 German soldiers and three policemen were killed in Afghanistan, 13 of which died in accidents[17].

* Flag of Greece Greece – 150 as of February 2008, some of whom were stationed at Kabul International Airport, while others manned various hospitals. Of the 170, around 130 were soldiers and 40 were air force personnel.

* Flag of Hungary Hungary – 230 as of February 2008[18]. The Hungarian infantry unit was situated in Kabul, however, on 1 October 2006, Hungary requisitioned its forces and took over responsibility, from the Dutch, for the Provincial Reconstruction Team in the town of Pul-e Khumri, the capital of Baghlan province.

* Flag of Iceland Iceland – 10 as of February 2008. Consisting of a Mobile/Military Observation Team at the PRT in Ghor province and various personnel operating at Kabul International Airport.

* Flag of Italy Italy – 2,880 as of February 2008[19]. Italian troops currently lead Regional Command West, and the PRT in Herat Province. The mandate issued by the Italian Parliament, does not allow Italian forces to take part in the battle against the Taliban insurgency in the south and east of Afghanistan, other than in exceptional circumstances.

* Flag of Latvia Latvia – 100 troops (as of February 2008) divided between Kabul and the PRTs in Mazar-i-Sharif and Meymaneh as of December 2007[20].

* Flag of Lithuania Lithuania – 260 as of February 2008. In June 2005, ISAF established in Chaghcharan, the capital of Ghor province, a Lithuanian PRT in which Danish, US and Icelandic troops also serve [21]. Lithuanian special forces were sent south to help the British forces in their spring offensive.

* Flag of Luxembourg Luxembourg – 9 as of February 2008[22]. Luxembourg is working together with Belgium in BELU ISAF 13. The Luxembourgian team is integrated in a Belgian platoon (two NCOs and seven soldiers) and provides one officer to the staff of the Force Protection group at KAIA.

* Flag of the Netherlands Netherlands – 1,650 as of February 2008. The main Dutch contingent, Task Force Uruzgan, consists of 300 troops in Deh Rahwod and 1,100 troops in Tarin Kowt, at Kamp Holland (both in Uruzgan province). The Air Task Force consists of a AH-64 Apache detachment (6 helicopters) in Tarin Kowt and a Chinook and F-16 detachment (six helicopters and jets) at Kandahar Airport. The command and liasion staff for Regional Command South are also located in Kandahar. An unknown number of Dutch Special Operations Forces operate in southern Afghanistan as well.[citation needed]

* Flag of Norway Norway – 495 as of February 2008[23]. Norwegian ISAF forces are divided between Meymaneh in Faryab province where they lead a provincial reconstruction team; and Mazar-e-Sharif, where they operate alongside Swedish forces. Four Royal Norwegian Air Force F-16s operated from Kabul airport alongside Dutch F-16s in support of NATO ISAF forces in southern Afghanistan during 2006[24]. Plans to reinforce the Norwegian contribution with 150 special forces, two or three helicopters, and 50 troops tasked with training Afghan soldiers were previously announced[25], however, as of February 2008 only the latter contingent has been confirmed[26]. After the attack on the Serena Hotel on January 14, 2008, the decision was made to send a team of military explosives experts to Kabul[27]. Three Norwegian soldiers have been killed in action[28].

* Flag of Poland Poland – 1,100 as of February 2008[29], most of whom operate in the south-eastern provinces of Ghazni and Paktika. An unknown number of Polish special forces (GROM) are deployed in the flashpoint southern province of Kandahar. Additionally, 400 soldiers and Mi-24 assault helicopters together with 200 non-combatant aircraft support crew are to be sent in 2008. This means that the Polish contingent's size will increase to 1941 soldiers excluding GROM. Poland is also to take over control of Paktika province in east Afghanistan.

* Flag of Portugal Portugal – 160 as of February 2008[30]. Portugual's involvement includes an elite infantry company from the Rapid Reaction Brigade and a 7-man Tactical Air Control unit from the Portuguese Air Force. Portuguese troops are rotated every six months: currently, the 2nd Paratrooper Company is deployed and will remain in the country from August 2007 to February 2008. The Portuguese infantry company has operated at Camp Warehouse in Kabul, at Kandahar Airfield, and in the provinces of Farah and Herat. Additionally, the 2nd Commando Company, consisting of about 100 troops, was involved in search and destroy operations as of May 2007, together with Canadian, British and Afghan forces, in Operation Hoover in Kandahar Province. Previously, the Portuguese Air Force had one C-130H in Afghanistan (from July 2004 until July 2005), and a 37-man Air Force unit was responsible for Kabul International Airport from August 2005 until December 2005.

* Flag of Romania Romania – 535 personnel as of February 2008[31], consisting of a battalion in Qalat. Additionally, a special forces squad (39 personnel) operates from an unknown location, and a training detachment of 47 personnel is in Kabul under the US-led Operation Enduring Freedom.

* Flag of Slovakia Slovakia – 70 as of February 2008. Multifunctional engineer company located in Kabul International Airport. Responsible for demining, building and repairing the airport.

* Flag of Slovenia Slovenia – 70 troops in Herat Province as of February 2008[32].

* Flag of Spain Spain – 740 as of February 2008. The collective Spanish military contribution to ISAF is known as ASPFOR XVII. Spanish forces are divided between Herat Province, where they form a quick-reaction force, an instructors team for Afghan National Army training and a Combat Search & Rescue unit; and Badghis Province, where they lead PRT Qala-i-Naw[33]. The deployment involves infantry, a transport helicopters unit, and a logistics component. Spanish soldiers, like their German and French counterparts, are constrained by caveats. The mandate issued by the Spanish Parliament, does not allow spanish forces to take part in the battle against the Taliban insurgency in the south and east of Afghanistan.

* Flag of Turkey Turkey – 675 as of February 2008[34], at least 400 of whom are logistics and communications personnel. Turkey's responsibilities include providing security in Kabul (it currently leads the Kabul Command), as well as in the as the central-eastern province of Wardak, where it leads PRT Maidan Shahr. Turkey was once the third largest contingent, and remains the only Muslim country in ISAF.

* Flag of the United Kingdom United Kingdom – 7,800 troops deployed in Helmand Province as of February 2008[35]. On February 26, 2007 UK's defence secretary authorized the deployment of an additional 1,400 troops which will bring British troop levels in Afghanistan to around 7,700 until 2009. [36]. The RAF and Army Air Corps have a major presence in and around the country, including Harrier GR7 attack jets, C130 cargo planes, CH-47 transport helicopters, Nimrod surveillance planes, Westland Lynx utility helicopters and WAH-64 Apache attack helicopters. They are officially there to help train Afghan security forces, facilitate reconstruction, and provide security, but in 2006, the situation in the north of Helmand turned increasingly violent, with British troops involved in fierce firefights against the Taliban and anti-coalition militia, particularly in the towns of Sangin, Musa Qala, Kajaki and Nawzad.

US soldiers provide security during a meeting with the district governor in Sabari, Afghanistan, March 6, 2007.
US soldiers provide security during a meeting with the district governor in Sabari, Afghanistan, March 6, 2007.

* Flag of the United States United States – 15,000 troops as of February 2008[37] US Troops are currently deployed in Afghanistan. 14,000 of which are under the command of NATO-ISAF as of December 2007. The remaining 1,000 troops are under US command to train the Afghan National Army and to hunt Taliban leaders and al-Qaida members. There is also a sizeable civilian U.S. presence as part of the Army Corps of Engineers.

Canada is the fifth largest troop contributer.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-02-2008, 22:09 PM

It is obvious that you've not been following the war. The Americans, British, and Canadians are the only ones actively seeking combat with the Taliban. The Dutch and their Australian auxiliaries are surrounded. The rest of the ISAF stay in areas already under control by the central Afghan government, ie in the north. The Americans, Canadians, British, Dutch are in areas actively being contested by the Taliban.

It's to a point that the Canadians had threatened that if we do not receive re-enforcements, not even combat but a garrison force, we are going to leave. The French, Poles, and Czechs are discussing in providing that force but are under discussion that they would only re-enforce the Canadians, not replace them, ie the Canadians would still be the only ones going out to do the fighting but at least now, they have someone to watch their backs.

gamercube · 03-02-2008, 22:20 PM

I confess that I do not follow the ISAF operations. Sadly, the media does not provide much coverage to the Afghanistan war as it does to the Iraq war. However, just judging by the number of countries and troops involved (more than 30,000), Canada could easily be replaced by any other country or a combination of other countries. The point still remains that Canada makes a difference only by virtue of being a part of NATO, not by itself.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-02-2008, 22:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamercube

Canada could easily be replaced by any other country or a combination of other countries.

NO, we CANNOT be replaced simply because NO ONE is willing to replace us. During our combat operations, the Germans even refused to deploy an air ambulance to the combat zone.

And Canada is making a difference in NATO BECAUSE we're willing to make NATO fight. The others are not, so your theory is pure hogwash.

gamercube · 03-02-2008, 22:29 PM

Ahh, but the Germans' mandate does not allow them to be involved in combat operations. Besides Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, UK, and the US are all involved in combat operations. Although, the Danes, Dutch, English and Americans are the only ones to have more combat troops than Canada.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-02-2008, 22:33 PM

What a load of crap. Since when is ambulance a combat operation? A quick check at the casualty list tells you who has been fighting and who has not been. You better check your list again. The Canadians are 4th largest force.

gamercube · 03-02-2008, 22:42 PM

Yep, you're right, the Canadians are the 4th largest force. However, the number of casualties can be misleading, since the countries with fewer troops on the ground will obviously not suffer as many casualties as those with thousands of troops on the ground.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-02-2008, 22:45 PM

The countries with fewer troops also see a lot less combat and therefore, a lot less impact. Casualties means that we are going out and suffering them. All this goes to show that the Canadians CANNOT be replaced because NO ONE is willing to replace them, NOT even the Americans.

Blademaster · 03-03-2008, 01:23 AM

Sir,

When the US pull out of Iraq which I suspect they will be if Obama wins the election, will US replace the Canadian forces or at least bolster the NATO forces in Afghanistan?

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-03-2008, 01:28 AM

I doubt it. The USMC re-enforced the south with 3000 Marines this spring but it was made clear that this was a one time deployment for 9 months and will not even help meet the Canadian demand for another 1000 strong battle group in Khandahar.

From what is being touted, the French will supply around 700 and another company group has to be found somewhere else.

Blademaster · 03-03-2008, 01:32 AM

It looks like that the NATO finally had enough of Afghanistan. What caused this change of attitude? I mean the Taliban is still a major threat. What kind of circumstances would it require in order to have US carpetbomb the areas where Taliban are currently staying, holding, and fortifying.

**Officer of Engineers** · 03-03-2008, 01:50 AM

It was united in name only. When the ISAF was originally formed, even the Canadians were not invited ... except to insultingly ask for 300 engineers which the Europeans knew we would refuse (we would have to strip all the engineer regiments, denying engineers to all our brigade groups and battle groups).

Also do recall that aside from the Special Forces, the Canadians were the 1st combat forces to support the Americans, followed by the British. Both the Canadian 3 PPCLI and the the British Royal Marine 45 Cmdo Grp were under CENTCOM, not ISAF.

And it was the British and Canadian militaries who spearheaded NATO's deployment to the south. We were the ones who argued for and planned to replace the Americans in both Helmand and Khandahar. While the Politicians were in the know, it was both Armies who lead the ISAF charge into the south. The Dutch followed us, and by extension, the Australians, but they are limited in their actions by their politicians.

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03-02-2008, 22:00 PM	#63 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,059 Country:	We've already got the 'Stans. That's how Canada arrived. And at that point, I think we can even count on China opening her 40 mile border to contain the spill over.

03-02-2008, 22:09 PM	#65 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,059 Country:	It is obvious that you've not been following the war. The Americans, British, and Canadians are the only ones actively seeking combat with the Taliban. The Dutch and their Australian auxiliaries are surrounded. The rest of the ISAF stay in areas already under control by the central Afghan government, ie in the north. The Americans, Canadians, British, Dutch are in areas actively being contested by the Taliban. It's to a point that the Canadians had threatened that if we do not receive re-enforcements, not even combat but a garrison force, we are going to leave. The French, Poles, and Czechs are discussing in providing that force but are under discussion that they would only re-enforce the Canadians, not replace them, ie the Canadians would still be the only ones going out to do the fighting but at least now, they have someone to watch their backs.

03-02-2008, 22:20 PM	#66 (permalink)
gamercube Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-20-06 Location: Barbados Posts: 771 Country:	I confess that I do not follow the ISAF operations. Sadly, the media does not provide much coverage to the Afghanistan war as it does to the Iraq war. However, just judging by the number of countries and troops involved (more than 30,000), Canada could easily be replaced by any other country or a combination of other countries. The point still remains that Canada makes a difference only by virtue of being a part of NATO, not by itself.

03-02-2008, 22:29 PM	#68 (permalink)
gamercube Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-20-06 Location: Barbados Posts: 771 Country:	Ahh, but the Germans' mandate does not allow them to be involved in combat operations. Besides Canada, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, UK, and the US are all involved in combat operations. Although, the Danes, Dutch, English and Americans are the only ones to have more combat troops than Canada.

03-02-2008, 22:33 PM	#69 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,059 Country:	What a load of crap. Since when is ambulance a combat operation? A quick check at the casualty list tells you who has been fighting and who has not been. You better check your list again. The Canadians are 4th largest force.

03-02-2008, 22:42 PM	#70 (permalink)
gamercube Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-20-06 Location: Barbados Posts: 771 Country:	Yep, you're right, the Canadians are the 4th largest force. However, the number of casualties can be misleading, since the countries with fewer troops on the ground will obviously not suffer as many casualties as those with thousands of troops on the ground.

03-02-2008, 22:45 PM	#71 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,059 Country:	The countries with fewer troops also see a lot less combat and therefore, a lot less impact. Casualties means that we are going out and suffering them. All this goes to show that the Canadians CANNOT be replaced because NO ONE is willing to replace them, NOT even the Americans.

03-03-2008, 01:23 AM	#72 (permalink)
Blademaster Military Enthusiast *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-15-03 Posts: 3,257	Sir, When the US pull out of Iraq which I suspect they will be if Obama wins the election, will US replace the Canadian forces or at least bolster the NATO forces in Afghanistan?

03-03-2008, 01:28 AM	#73 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,059 Country:	I doubt it. The USMC re-enforced the south with 3000 Marines this spring but it was made clear that this was a one time deployment for 9 months and will not even help meet the Canadian demand for another 1000 strong battle group in Khandahar. From what is being touted, the French will supply around 700 and another company group has to be found somewhere else.

03-03-2008, 01:32 AM	#74 (permalink)
Blademaster Military Enthusiast *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-15-03 Posts: 3,257	It looks like that the NATO finally had enough of Afghanistan. What caused this change of attitude? I mean the Taliban is still a major threat. What kind of circumstances would it require in order to have US carpetbomb the areas where Taliban are currently staying, holding, and fortifying.

03-03-2008, 01:50 AM	#75 (permalink)
Officer of Engineers *Military Professional* Moderator Scotch taster Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 17,059 Country:	It was united in name only. When the ISAF was originally formed, even the Canadians were not invited ... except to insultingly ask for 300 engineers which the Europeans knew we would refuse (we would have to strip all the engineer regiments, denying engineers to all our brigade groups and battle groups). Also do recall that aside from the Special Forces, the Canadians were the 1st combat forces to support the Americans, followed by the British. Both the Canadian 3 PPCLI and the the British Royal Marine 45 Cmdo Grp were under CENTCOM, not ISAF. And it was the British and Canadian militaries who spearheaded NATO's deployment to the south. We were the ones who argued for and planned to replace the Americans in both Helmand and Khandahar. While the Politicians were in the know, it was both Armies who lead the ISAF charge into the south. The Dutch followed us, and by extension, the Australians, but they are limited in their actions by their politicians.

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