JAD_333

Tronic, it's not easy to forget when a man is barely censured by his country for illegally trading in nuclear knowhow, and I agree what Khan did amounts to proliferation, but I doubt the govt of Pakistan sanctioned his activities.

Your point seems to be that there is a double standard in accepting Pak's nukes while resisting Iran's. There may be. The way I see it is that Pak acquired nukes because India did. It wasn't so much to dominate a region of the globe as it was to deter India in the event of impending hostilities.

One could say that Iran has the same perspective of Israel's nukes and that acquiring its own is no different than Pak having acquired theirs. If that is true, then US opposition to Iran's nuclear program seems to make no sense.
But if you consider the strong protective ties the US has with Israel, it make a lot of sense.

People often naively expect nations to treat each other evenhandedly. While it may seem inconsistent for the US to tolerate Pak's nukes but not tolerate Iran's, there is no inconsistency when one realizes that US policy flows not from a sense of justice, but from its vital interests.

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Adux

What has fairness, morality or even handness got anything to do with International Geo-politics.

You gotta be kidding me, there is no way A Q Khan could have done all of it alone. It was nuclear jigsaw puzzle., You give me what you have, I will give you what I have. Nodong Missile transfer is pertinent example for it.

chankya

I remember reading the the US had satellite imagery of PAF C-130s ferrying nuclear material to North Korea and missile parts back. I'll try and search for a link. No way the PAF is a rogue organization.

Why is it that noone is allowed access to AQ Khan? How come we don't have his side of the story.

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Ray

[quote].

It is not feasible for a nuke scientist to visit a foreign country to meet other scientists of that foreign country and the intelligence agencies not knowing what transpired. This is more so when the being a nuclear nation is taken to be a "ational treasure". The importance of being the sole saviour of Islamic nation is a very heady feeling.

Therefore, the GoP not knowing what was up is not feasible. This is further reinforced by the fact that the nuke knowhow was also given to Libya and Libya was a very volatile state. Obviously, the Father of the Bomb going to Libya would have certainly raised the tentacle if it was a private show.

Therefore, it sure did have the GoP's sanction.

If indeed, there was no GoP sanctions, then Pakistan is a real dangerous state where the nuclear knowhow and assets are loosely monitored.

I am not a votary of Iran to have a nuke.

But given you argument that Pakistan acquired the nuke because India had, would also apply to Iran. If the Sunnis (no friends of Shias) can have a nuke, then why not a Shia Iran having the same, more so since it is not a very welcomed entity in an Arab Sunni dominated area and on top of it, there is their common enemy, Israel, who too, has the nukes!

Spot on!

Spot on, again!

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"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Deltacamelately

JAD...What stuff do you smoke these days? It will be lunatic for a nuclear scientist and specially for a celebrity like the Father of the Islamic Bomb to even try to pass on tech to ANY country without the GUARANTED SANCTION by his Govt and Intelligence. Dud! I am not impressed with THIS Level of reasoning.
1.GUARANTEED DOUBLE STANDARD.Pakistan fits into the overall scheme of things. Iran doesn't. Pakistan allows use of its force,territory,infrastructure in the WAT, Iran doesn't. Pakistan can be walked by the finger(US is the only element standing between Pakistan's financial and political survival and collapse), Iran can't.
2.I agree...it was to Deter India.

Exactly. But keeping the Utopian "Free will of Nations" thing apart, they HAVE to be stopped. Now, there is still some hope that Pakistan can be stopped and its Nuclear Tech can be insulated from flowing into the Islamic world and even Terrorists. Iran gets it and all of us are searching in the Google....who all got it who all didn't.
[/quote]
One good thing India needs to learn FULLY from the US.

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Deltacamelately

Tell this to S-2 and the Dianasaur as well.

Tronic

Did the government sanction his activities? Thats not really for me to say; but JAD, I will also not argue with the intelligence reports that Pakistan traded nuclear technology for return favours, like missiles from North Korea. There was even one event where sattelites had caught a Pakistani C-130 red-handed in North Korea.

JAD, I'm also not a votary for a nuclear Iran but that argument can be thrown into the ME scenario also with the Israelis. Though I see you have addressed this.

Yes, it indeed does.

Completely agree with you mate! And my entire argument was along those lines! India making Iran its enemy does not make sense because it does not serve India's vital interests in Afghanistan.

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Tronic

Yes, that is what I was referring to also.

Agnostic Muslim

[quote=Ray;458938]I think you are applying the norms of nations with well developed and delineated institutions while assuming that it would have been impossible for AQK to conduct his activities without "official sanction". The latitude allowed him was enormous and Musharraf himself mentions an occasion when AQK refused to tell him - the Chief Executive and COAS - what exactly was being transported on a particular trip of his. Whether you choose to not believe the account is a different matter, but to most Pakistanis, it is perfectly understandable given the personality cult and "savior" status he gained in Pakistan. One oft repeated joke was that the Prime Ministers had to ask his permission to visit Nuclear facilities. His security detail, and the army officers in charge reported to him. While it is completely plausible that certain officials in the Government knew about his activities, there is no indication that there was official government sanction for his proliferation, though the GoP is responsible for not putting in place effective controls to prevent such a thing.

Your comment about Pakistan being a "real dangerous state", in the proliferation context, is also only correct to an extent - yes, given the dismal and almost non existent nuclear controls in place, Pakistan WAS a "real dangerous state" - however the highlighting of AQK's proliferation embarrassed and forced Pakistan into removing and isolating him and put in place a process of rigorous nuclear controls that are detailed in a thread elsewhere. It would therefore be wrong to make the "dangerous state" claim at this point without dissecting the Pakistani Nuclear Controls and pointing out where flaws still exist.

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Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission - Jinnah

Officer of Engineers

AM,

What scares me more is your statement that the Chinese knows more about Pak nukes than the Pak government. They were not happy that their plans ended up in Lybia and Iran.

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Chimo

Agnostic Muslim

The claim of the GoP taking the risk of proliferating to the North Koreans for acquiring the Nodong doesn't make sense - given that PAEC was in the final stages of developing the Shaheen (a relatively more advanced missile). From the information that is available now, it seems there were two Ballistic Missile (and Nuclear) programs running simultaneously in Pakistan. One by PAEC (currently NESCOM) and the KRL. It perhaps makes sense that Khan Research Labs (AQ khans org.) decided to acquire the Nodong (Ghauri) to demonstrate success, though it had been unable to, given the development of the Shaheen.

Agnostic Muslim

OOE,

Unfortunately the marginalization of the civilian government is a reflection of the failure of institutions in Pakistan, bar the military, developing and maturing. It would be unwise to allow such "fickle" institutions and their members to gain access to information pertaining to national security. That is why the civvies in Pakistan won't know anything. Given appropriate time and continuity in the democratic process, further devolution of information is but natural, but the military can hardly be blamed for not trusting the bunch of jokers appointing nineteen year olds as "Party Chairman" and the like.

Someone mentioned Pakistan following Chinese interests to the detriment of her own - at this point in history I fail to see how that has been the case. A large part of Pakistan's indigenous defense industry owes its existence to Chinese collaboration, as do various major economic projects. There is hardly any position that Pakistan has taken, that could be argued to be foisted upon it by China, that has been of detriment to Pakistan. The exchange has been extremely beneficial from a material point of view for Pakistan, less so for China, though some seem to be arguing that the relationship is of strategic value vis a vis India and energy route security.

Adux

Shaheen is exactly the Nodong. It has been beaten to death, atleast own it up man. Dont tell me Pakistan bought the pencil shaped metal case from N.Koreans since they put everything inside in it with 'pakistani' tech guidance, motor, and the likes.
Why do you think Pakistani's cant weld together a metal case that looks like a pencil

Sorry for coming so strongly, but this business of lame reasoning when proof produced right in front is quite unbearable.

Adux

Iranian Shabab



Pakistani Shaheen

Agnostic Muslim

I wouldn't expect anything from you except incivility Adux, so need to apologize.

Last time we had this discussion, on PFF, you claimed the Ghauri was the Nodong, now you claim the Shaheen is the Nodong. The Shaheen 1 was solid fueled (vs the liquid fueled Ghauri) and half the range - so which one did we buy?

Your own images compare the Shaheen series to the Chinese M-11 and M1 B missiles - and correct me if I am wrong, but didn't I hypothesize that the Ghauri was the Nodong, and an attempt by KRL to show success since the parallel program was going along nicely? So what exactly are you trying to "come on so strongly about"?

If in fact one assumes the technology for the Shaheen to be China based, it makes the argument of "official GoP sanction" for proliferation to NK in exchange for the Nodong even more suspect, since the GoP already had a better alternative available from a more reliable source.