How a Muslim Billionaire Thrives in Hindu India

Adux · 09-18-2007, 14:14 PM

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PAGE ONE

SECULAR ENGINEER
How a Muslim Billionaire Thrives in Hindu India
Mr. Premji Has Wealth
And Clout as Wipro Chief;
The Imam Disapproves
By YAROSLAV TROFIMOV
September 11, 2007; Page A1

(See Corrections & Amplifications item below.)

BANGALORE, India -- The world's richest Muslim entrepreneur defies conventional wisdom about Islamic tycoons: He doesn't hail from the Persian Gulf, he didn't make his money in petroleum, and he definitely doesn't wear his faith on his sleeve.

A native of Mumbai, Azim Premji has tapped India's abundant engineering talent to transform a family vegetable-oil firm, Wipro Ltd., into a technology and outsourcing giant. By serving Western manufacturers, airlines and utilities, the company has brought Mr. Premji a fortune of some $17 billion -- believed to be greater than that of any other Muslim outside of Persian Gulf royalty.

Such success, Mr. Premji says in an interview, shows that globalization -- a force Islamist activists decry as Western neocolonialism -- is turning into "two-way traffic" that can bring tangible benefits to developing countries.

Mr. Premji's rise is already inspiring some Indian Muslims to embrace the modern, globalized world. "He's an icon. He shows that excellence has no caste and no creed, and that if one has excellence, one can make it to the top," says Mohamed Javeed, principal of Bangalore's predominantly Muslim Al-Ameen College. One of the students, Mohammed Nasseer, enthuses, "I'd love to become like Premji one day."

A role model like Mr. Premji might seem to be what India's Muslims need. Though the country's economy is growing at 9% a year, the vast majority of India's estimated 150 million Muslims -- the largest Islamic population in the world after Indonesia and Pakistan -- remain socially marginalized, badly educated and mired in deep poverty. By and large, they're left out of the social transformation that is propelling millions of their Hindu compatriots into prosperity, as barriers of caste disappear and India's new corporate giants provide opportunities that never existed before.

Yet, to many in India's Muslim community, Mr. Premji's enormous wealth, far from being inspiring, shows that success comes at a price the truly faithful cannot accept. They resent that Mr. Premji plays down his religious roots and declines to embrace Muslim causes -- in a nation where people are pegged by their religion and where Hindus freely flaunt theirs. "If you are a Muslim and want to be rich in India, you have to show you are very secular," says Zafarul Islam Khan, secretary-general of the All-India Muslim Majlis e Mushawarat, an umbrella group.

RELIGIOUS DIVIDE

• The Issue: Wipro executive Azim Premji has inspired other Muslims in India to embrace the modern world -- but not all Muslims approve of his secular ways.
• Behind the Debate: Muslims are among the poorest and least educated groups in India.
• Hiring Prospects: Technology giant Wipro says it seeks to hire regardless of creed, but relatively few Indian Muslims meet its standards because they lack English skills and engineering degrees.A Muslim school a half-hour's drive from Mr. Premji's Bangalore home reveals the chasm between this globalist success story and the country's Muslim masses. Students sitting cross-legged on the floor of the Masjid e Takwa madrassa spend their days memorizing the Quran in Arabic -- a language that neither they nor their teacher understand.

The classes are taught in Urdu, a tongue that's largely confined to Muslims and uses the Arabic script. There is no science in the curriculum. Neither is there English, the language in which Wipro conducts business and interviews job applicants, as it looks for Westernized staff who can deal with international customers.

The madrassa's imam, Munir Ahmed, says that for his students, a future as self-employed shopkeepers or peddlers is preferable to seeking formal work at a large company. "A job is like being a slave," Mr. Ahmed chuckles, adding that his graduates are in great demand as teachers in other madrassas. Schoolboys in the streets nearby, asked about Wipro, say they've never heard of it or of Mr. Premji.

The condition of India's Muslims is rooted in the partition of the subcontinent along religious lines in 1947. Amid horrendous massacres, millions of Muslims fled to the newly formed Muslim-majority state of Pakistan, just as most of Pakistan's Hindus and Sikhs escaped to India.

The Muslims who abandoned India included large numbers of the most educated and successful. Those remaining after partition have become "economically, socially, educationally...India's most backward community," says Mahmood Madani, a Parliament member who is secretary-general of India's leading Muslim religious organization, Jamiat Ulema e Hind. By some economic and social measures, Muslims are even losing out to Dalits, the erstwhile "untouchables" who are at the very bottom of the Hindu caste hierarchy.

Illiteracy is higher among Muslims than among Dalits in the key 6-to-17 age group. Although Muslims account for more than 13% of India's population, they make up only 1.7% of undergraduates in India's version of the Ivy League, the seven Indian Institutes of Technology. The underrepresentation is just as severe in the nation's bureaucratic elite: Muslims make up 3% of staff in the Indian Administrative Service and 1.8% of the diplomatic corps.

Only a few of the Muslims who stayed behind in India after partition have managed to prosper, including some Bollywood stars and A.P.J. Abdul Kalam, who until recently held the largely ceremonial post of Indian president. "The Muslims we have in India are mostly the poor and the laborers, and a few very rich people like Premji," says Ramachandra Guha, a prominent historian.

With the country regularly rocked by bombings carried out by radicalized Muslim groups, such as the twin attacks that killed 42 people in the technology hub of Hyderabad in late August, even many Hindu politicians and academics see an urgent need to bridge the economic divide between the Muslim minority and the Hindu majority. The Indian government is considering measures to extend to most Muslims the affirmative-action benefits that have long reserved a large share of government jobs and university places for Dalits and other underprivileged groups.

Unlike those observers and Muslim community leaders, Mr. Premji bristles impatiently when the plight of the broader Muslim populace is cited. "This whole issue of Hindu-Muslim in India is completely overhyped," the 62-year-old executive says.

Mr. Premji has mentioned his Muslim background so rarely in public that many Indian Muslims don't even know he shares their heritage. None of Wipro's senior managers aside from Mr. Premji himself are Muslims. The company maintains normal working hours on Islamic high holidays. Among its 70,000 employees, there's only a "sprinkling" of Muslims, according to Sudip Banerjee, president of a division that accounts for a third of revenue.

Mr. Premji's private philanthropy is dispensed through a foundation that's managed by a Hindu former Wipro executive and cuts across religious lines. After the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, U.S. officials asked the Azim Premji Foundation to help start an education program that would instill moderate values in Islamic schools. The foundation declined the religion-focused project, according to its chief executive, because "we are working for all."

In an interview at Wipro's sleek Bangalore campus, which had just been visited by a group of Israeli businessmen, Mr. Premji scoffed at the idea he should display his Muslim identity or champion the cause of Muslim advancement in India. "We've always seen ourselves as Indian. We've never seen ourselves as Hindus, or Muslims, or Christians or Buddhists," he said.

These secularist values came to him naturally. There was no madrassa in Mr. Premji's own education. He attended a Mumbai Catholic school, St. Mary's, and then studied electrical engineering at Stanford University in Palo Alto, Calif.

As a prominent Muslim businessman in the 1940s, Mr. Premji's late father, M.H. Premji, faced repeated requests for support from Pakistan's fiery founder, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, who offered the father a cabinet-minister job in the new Muslim country. But the Premji family didn't believe in a religious state, and refused to move. "We did not think in these terms," Mr. Premji says. "There were roots in India, there were roots in Bombay. Why should one in any way dislodge these roots?"

While India's Muslim groups complain about facing daily discrimination, Mr. Premji says the only time he has been singled out because of his Muslim heritage wasn't in India but at a U.S. airport shortly after 9/11. In doing business in India, he maintains, "I don't think being a Muslim or being a non-Muslim has been an advantage or disadvantage. It's just been based on the merits of the opportunities."

He's been adroit at seizing those. After the death of his father in 1966, he took the helm at Wipro at the age of 21, against the wishes of board members who wanted seasoned management. Long publicly traded -- although controlled by the Premji family with 81% of the stock -- the company then had annual sales of only $2 million. It was known as Western India Vegetable Product Ltd. and mostly produced a kind of sunflower oil called vanaspati, a staple of Indian cuisine.

Mr. Premji set out to diversify, and a break came in 1977, when a coalition of Hindu nationalists, Socialists and others displaced the ruling Congress party. The new government clamped down on multinationals, prompting the exodus of corporate giants like International Business Machines Corp. and Coca-Cola Co. Mr. Premji stepped in, beginning to manufacture computers and other electronics.

"The space was opened because imports were banned into India, or imports were very expensive because of duty tariffs," he recalls. He set up shop in Bangalore, a southern city whose dry highland air is well suited for assembling electronics. He hired managers and engineers from India's large military industry. Wipro became a major manufacturer of technology hardware.

The bonanza ended in the early 1990s as a different Indian government, seeing capitalism rise in former Eastern-bloc nations, abandoned socialism and eased import restrictions. This created something of a crisis for Wipro and other electronics manufacturers. "The goods and services that we produced were no longer needed because customers could buy what's best and available on the global market," says Wipro's Mr. Banerjee.

While many of Wipro's peers didn't survive the change, Mr. Premji spotted another opportunity in the upheaval. Wipro went to the foreign companies with which it did business when it was a manufacturer, such as General Electric Co. and Sun Microsystems Inc., and offered a new relationship. At relatively low cost, its high-quality engineers could take on outsourced work such as design, research and testing.

Wipro's outsourcing business now spans the gamut. It has simple call-center management, but it also designs mobile phones for leading international brands. It runs the computer systems of European utilities and does full-service business consulting. In the fiscal year ended March 31, Wipro's profit surged 44% to $677 million, as sales climbed 41% to $3.47 billion. The shares, which are also traded on the New York Stock Exchange, have tripled in value over the past five years, giving the company a market value of some $20 billion.

As Wipro becomes a global powerhouse, company officials say they seek to hire the best regardless of creed. They say that among the reasons few Indian Muslims meet Wipro's stringent standards is that they often study in Urdu rather than English, and rarely pursue engineering degrees. Urdu, which is also the official language of Pakistan, is intertwined with Islamic identity on the subcontinent. In southern India, where most of the country's technology industry is based, Hindus speak a number of regional languages and are more likely to study English.

"All our hiring staff are trained to interview in English," Mr. Premji says. "They're trained to look for Westernized segments because we deal with global customers." Out of every 100 résumés received, only one or two usually come from Muslim applicants, according to a former manager in Wipro's human-resources department.

Yet, as outsourcing giants like Wipro and Infosys Technologies Ltd. have grown and hired, the attitudes of some Muslims toward education are slowly beginning to change. Bangalore's Al-Ameen college is run by a movement that seeks to modernize the Muslim community. About 360 graduate and undergraduate students, both men and women, are currently studying for computer-science degrees. Most are Muslims, including pious young men with long beards and women with an Islamic hejab that covers their hair, though not their faces.

Many graduates have already gotten jobs at companies like Wipro and Infosys, says the college's principal, Mr. Javeed, and have started to earn salaries well above those offered outside the booming technology industry. "This has brought awareness to the Muslim community about the need to pursue higher education," he says. "People are beginning to realize that education is power, that education is money, that education is an opportunity."

Write to Yaroslav Trofimov at yaroslav.trofimov@wsj.com

Corrections & Amplifications:

The foundation of Wipro Ltd. Chairman Azim Premji is called the Azim Premji Foundation. This article incorrectly spelled the institution's name as the Aziz Premji Foundation.

Free Article - WSJ.com

Now look at this rant, lies and drivel written about this article and this very decent man

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What Makes Premji a 'Muslim Tycoon'?
BY FARZANA VERSEY
Is Azim Premji really the world’s richest Muslim entrepreneur? Is there a list which mentions the richest Hindu, Jew, Buddhist, Christian, Scientologist, atheist, Rastafarian?

Unlikely. At least nothing that would make the Wall Street Journal want to give it front page legitimacy. Talking of legitimacy, surely we are talking about legitimate enterprise, for the underworld and the mafia, Muslim or otherwise, are flush with money. In all likelihood, they are investors in the big companies.

Mr. Premji heads Wipro, India's third-largest IT exporter. Its fortune rests at $17 billion. I like rich people. But this gentleman is not just rich; he has been saddled with baggage. And the newspaper goes out of its way to prise it open by saying that he defies all conventional wisdom about Islamic tycoons - he does not hail from the Persian Gulf and does not wear his faith on his sleeve.

Where did the term ‘Islamic tycoon’ come from? What is unconventional about not wearing your faith on your sleeve? Is it even important to discuss?

Of course, it is. Imagine the world we are living in. Azim Premji has to be displayed as the nice guy – no beard, well-fitted suit, an amiable demeanor, likeable. He might have been a crass bore with filthy lucre, the Tom Cruise type who had to jump on an Oprah Winfrey sofa to declare his love for a Kate to become interesting. Mr. Premji has been given a moment quite unlike that cheesy one. He has been profiled (and do pardon the pun) in an article titled, “How a Muslim Billionaire Thrives in Hindu India”.

I am an Indian and have always lived in the country of my birth. It is not a Hindu nation. It may have a majority of Hindus, but then it has a majority of illiterates. Why wasn’t the report called, “How a literate billionaire thrives in illiterate India”? There are many such potential headlines I may offer, but I should hope the point has been made.

This ‘Muslim billionaire’ has thrived because he had a family business to start with. He had money to get a decent education and he had the spirit of enterprise. Hindu India did not contribute to these, neither did Muslims. It is an individual achievement.

It is unfortunate that Muslims are being made accountable for aspects of life that would under normal circumstances not identity them with religion.

Yaroslav Trofimov, the writer of the article, says, “Yet, to many in India's Muslim community, Mr. Premji's enormous wealth, far from being inspiring, shows that success comes at a price the truly faithful cannot accept. They resent that Mr. Premji plays down his religious roots and declines to embrace Muslim causes – in a nation where people are pegged by their religion and where Hindus freely flaunt theirs.”

What price has Mr. Premji had to pay? He has quietly gone and made a success of his business. There is no resentment against his hesitation to talk about his Muslim identity, and no Muslim social organisations aredependent on his largesse.

What is resented is the fact that in a country where most of the 150 million people of the community are ghettoized, the likes of Premji are touted as examples of Hindu tolerance. This just does not wash. It is most patronizing, and a huge insult to those who do make a decent living but are tagged in ways that are negative simply because they lack the visibility of a high-profile profession. On any given day there will be a handful of Muslims taken out of the celebrity closet to reveal the mothballed magnanimity of the majority community.

No one wants Premji to stand up and be counted. But there is no reason for him to play along with this secular sham, and he has been doing so for a while. He said in an interview to the paper, “We have always seen ourselves as Indian. We've never seen ourselves as Hindus, or Muslims, or Christians or Buddhists.”

The report further states, “Mr. Premji has mentioned his Muslim background so rarely in public that many Indian Muslims don't even know he shares their heritage. None of Wipro's senior managers aside from Mr. Premji himself are Muslims. The company maintains normal working hours on Islamic high holidays.”

This does not sound like a report in a respected newspaper but something straight out of a pamphlet. What heritage are we talking about? Is there one Muslim heritage? His last name could well be Hindu as his roots are in Gujarat. What is so heart-warming and significant about not working on Islamic holidays? Does it become news when many Hindu-owned companies celebrate religious festivals with a puja (prayer) and in fact during Diwali (that is an unabashed ode to the goddess of wealth) people even offer prayers to account books? Is it news that this includes Muslim entrepreneurs? What is the purpose behind such a statement? And why is it surprising considering that most of the 70,000 employees of Premji’s company are non-Muslim?

These are devious little tricks. No one mentions good old Adnan Khashoggi and his cruise liners in which the international high and mighty had fun vacations.

Isn’t there a mean between riding the Islamophobia and secular waves? The latter is as ridiculous as Mohamed al Fayed screaming about being discriminated against by British society because of his religion.

Azim Premji is a thriving businessman in the globalized world he keeps talking about. A globalized world that is unwilling to dignify him as just another wealthy guy and has to mention his religion not just in passing but as the very crux of his defiance – a defiance that is as imaginary as other stereotypes.

He says with what appears to be an element of arrogance, “All our hiring staff are trained to interview in English. They're trained to look for Westernized segments because we deal with global customers.”

Indeed. The Chinese, the Japanese, the Russians are doing rather well for themselves, and they don’t go around kowtowing to some colonial mentality that talks about English in such a fashion. He mentions that most Muslims are educated in Urdu. Perhaps he might like to check the statistics that say Urdu is a dying language. Perhaps he might like to sponsor some schools for Muslim children; he can do so incognito so that his secular credentials are safe. Perhaps he might like to know that even madrassas these days use his computers, so it is entirely possible they are cracking codes on them. Perhaps he might like to not even entertain questions about his Muslim identity. He is rich enough to afford to say, “No comments”. That is true liberation.

However, being called a Muslim tycoon is like being addressed as a hot Eskimo. And who doesn’t like a touch of oxymoron?

Farzana Versey is a Mumbai-based writer-columnist. She can be contacted at kaaghaz.kalam@gmail.com

Farzana Versey: What Makes Premji a 'Muslim Tycoon'?

Now for god sakes!!!!!

Adux · 09-18-2007, 14:16 PM

Well it seems one needs a beard, a few jehadi cries to be called a good muslim, in the muslim community?
So is War on Terror actually right, did the liberals get it wrong?

Adux · 09-18-2007, 15:08 PM

Why are conspiracy stories such a big hit with Hippie's and islamic terrorists, whats the connection?

Indirect Fire · 09-18-2007, 18:02 PM

Farzana Versey, a national traitor and disgrace to India.

Tronic · 09-18-2007, 18:28 PM

Well, for the first one, its because modern India was never "Hindu" India, it has always been just "India". One of many reasons that today we are not a failed state as some of our neighbours.

And for the second article, its just nothing more then an empty rant. Its difficult to tell what the author has a problem with; reading through the article, it just seems that the author is really ticked off by seeing successful Muslims in a Hindu dominated or "Kaffir" country. And again, Premji is not the only example, we have had Muslim presidents in the past and do also have a very successful, patriotic and visible community of well off Muslims. But I think the author might be pissed because all these successful Muslims go against the propaganda preached by our dear neighbour that India is a Hindu country where Muslims are persecuted.

SLASH · 09-18-2007, 19:55 PM

Its a shame that having over 300 million muslims in the country some people still call India a Hindu country....

Indirect Fire · 09-18-2007, 21:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tronic

Well, for the first one, its because modern India was never "Hindu" India, it has always been just "India". One of many reasons that today we are not a failed state as some of our neighbours.

No specific countries being named today, eh?

Quote:

And for the second article, its just nothing more then an empty rant. Its difficult to tell what the author has a problem with; reading through the article, it just seems that the author is really ticked off by seeing successful Muslims in a Hindu dominated or "Kaffir" country. And again, Premji is not the only example, we have had Muslim presidents in the past and do also have a very successful, patriotic and visible community of well off Muslims. But I think the author might be pissed because all these successful Muslims go against the propaganda preached by our dear neighbour that India is a Hindu country where Muslims are persecuted.

Damn... Another annoying Shiv Sena activist (Sorry Tronic if you think that I meant you, but this was directed at the author of the second article)

Amaterasu · 09-18-2007, 22:55 PM

alright!!1 Allahu snackbar is open for business

Tronic · 09-18-2007, 23:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indirect Fire

No specific countries being named today, eh?

ehe, no need to state the quite obvious.

Quote:

Damn... Another annoying Shiv Sena activist (Sorry Tronic if you think that I meant you, but this was directed at the author of the second article)

lol, I hope you haven't opened up a can of worms with that, but yes, I a do agree with you, or if not Shiv Sena, then their brothers in arms in any of the Islamic orgs.

And coming to it, I think both articles are a bit off (and the second one now just seems as an angry response to the first one.) Premji never branded himself a "Muslim Billionare", so all these journos are just putting crap on paper just for the sake of writing something. As far as Premji is concerned, he is an Indian Billionare and will remain so until the day he himself starts clasifying himself as an "Islamic Tycoon" or a "Muslim Billionare". Indian journos just happen to be full of sh!t; One thing I learned from the Arjun experience.

chankya · 09-18-2007, 23:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tronic

Premji never branded himself a "Muslim Billionare", so all these journos are just putting crap on paper just for the sake of writing something.

Actually that's what her problem seems to be. She wants Premji to go around telling people he is Muslim and the WSJ not to. Or so it seemed like to me.
She's not too sure herself.

Quote:

No one wants Premji to stand up and be counted. But there is no reason for him to play along with this secular sham, and he has been doing so for a while. He said in an interview to the paper, “We have always seen ourselves as Indian. We've never seen ourselves as Hindus, or Muslims, or Christians or Buddhists.”

Adux · 09-19-2007, 02:44 AM

If she thinks english language is colonial, and cant get it into her head that wether we like it or not. This world runs on English. So why write in the language? Hypocrisy.
She wants Asim Premji to give all his jobs to muslims and pay charity to jehadi organizations. Asim Premji on the other hand rather give jobs to deserving Indians irrespective of religion. She just cant handle that fact.
We all come back to the point any religion is second class to Muslim religion, Therefore secularism is in reality their enemy No.1

chankya · 09-19-2007, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

We all come back to the point any religion is second class to Muslim religion, Therefore secularism is in reality their enemy No.1

Well then you're drawing conclusions in the same way she is. She's muslim so are the likes of Premji and Kalam. Why do you pick on her message and ignore what they have to say?

My point is that i could pick the Shiv Sena and say that all Hindus are manic wierdos and if that isin't true then this ain't true either. The fact remains that we have large muslim population. They are as much a citizen of the nation as you or I and have as much need to prove their patriotism..

The more you you make blanket accusations the more paranoia you spread and the siege mentality grows. Then we really are in trouble.

The writer is a confused dunderhead who is rather symbolic of indian jurnos in general. As such her religion is unimportant;Idiocy is not sole purvey of any one religion.

Adux · 09-19-2007, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chankya

Well then you're drawing conclusions in the same way she is. She's muslim so are the likes of Premji and Kalam. Why do you pick on her message and ignore what they have to say?

My point is that i could pick the Shiv Sena and say that all Hindus are manic wierdos and if that isin't true then this ain't true either. The fact remains that we have large muslim population. They are as much a citizen of the nation as you or I and have as much need to prove their patriotism..

The more you you make blanket accusations the more paranoia you spread and the siege mentality grows. Then we really are in trouble.

The writer is a confused dunderhead who is rather symbolic of indian jurnos in general. As such her religion is unimportant;Idiocy is not sole purvey of any one religion.

True, You are quite right about your deduction. BUt, No matter how we try to compare Shiv Sena to that of a Al-Qaeda or similar organization, they never measure up. I dont see the world being held by the balls by another religion that on a large scale global effect.

I am not religious and dont consider myself a Hindu, but rather a secularist. My way of life has less to be worried about Christanity or Hinduism or jainism or Buddhisim. I have nothing against Islam or muslim as you may think, But I do think their current trend is in direct collission with the freedom of others.

chankya · 09-19-2007, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adux

True, You are quite right about your deduction. BUt, No matter how we try to compare Shiv Sena to that of a Al-Qaeda or similar organization, they never measure up. I dont see the world being held by the balls by another religion that on a large scale global effect.

My point is that no matter what the scale, what is comes down to is whether we are prepared to hold all responsible for the actions of a few. If we are then we should apply it across the board. Otherwise we are guilty of treating one lot different from another. And in doing so we create a reasonable cause for discontent.

Quote:

I am not religious and dont consider myself a Hindu, but rather a secularist. My way of life has less to be worried about Christanity or Hinduism or jainism or Buddhisim. I have nothing against Islam or muslim as you may think, But I do think their current trend is in direct collission with the freedom of others.

Fair Enough. But I fear that while our problems are not so much religious in nature (Religion is but a tool for Pakistan. At least it was. Nowadays I'm not so sure) we're too eager to associate ourselves with the GWOT which is beginning to look more like a clash of civilizations to me . Mind you there are some benefits of this association too. The west seems to understand our problems at last and, whatever we fool ourselves with, they control the purse strings of nations like Pakistan and therefore are in a position to help us.

On the flip side we might just end up alienating our own muslim (so far loyal) population and create a bigger mess. This incidentally is a headache that'll be uniquely ours. For all the bellyaching about the 'muslim invasion' of Europe they don't have anything like the size of our muslim population.

Either way we go we better go in with our eyes open and under no illusions as to how badly this may end up. Its all very well to sympathize with the west, but if history shows anything, it is that we better watch out for ourselves, because none else will.

Adux · 09-19-2007, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chankya

My point is that no matter what the scale, what is comes down to is whether we are prepared to hold all responsible for the actions of a few. If we are then we should apply it across the board. Otherwise we are guilty of treating one lot different from another. And in doing so we create a reasonable cause for discontent.

For me to answer this question, you will have to define what moderate islam or a muslim is.
Is it possible for them to side with non-muslims against their own, even if they are aware non-muslim's right.

Quote:

Fair Enough. But I fear that while our problems are not so much religious in nature (Religion is but a tool for Pakistan. At least it was. Nowadays I'm not so sure) we're too eager to associate ourselves with the GWOT which is beginning to look more like a clash of civilizations to me .

It is as you say clash of civilizations, for sure.

Quote:

Mind you there are some benefits of this association too. The west seems to understand our problems at last and, whatever we fool ourselves with, they control the purse strings of nations like Pakistan and therefore are in a position to help us.

That is not the benefit, I am looking for. Pakistan is an irritant at best, who uses the lack of political will-power of India to its best.The biggest benefit for secularism, would be the reformation of Islam, the kind that happened to Christainity during the renissance times. I donr care even if 99% of this world is islamic, if they can give the 1% equal rights. That is what I am expecting of the islamic world.

Quote:

On the flip side we might just end up alienating our own muslim (so far loyal) population and create a bigger mess. This incidentally is a headache that'll be uniquely ours. For all the bellyaching about the 'muslim invasion' of Europe they don't have anything like the size of our muslim population.

Not that I dont agree with you about the enormity of our situation.
I would still call that appeasement. Wether we like it or not Political Islam is an enemy of India. Muslims will have to understand we as nation are more important than "political islam" and our secular credentials is of paramount importance. And again, just to make my point across, let India be 100% muslims, as long as political islam is not there. I dont think any nation or India have anything to worry about.

Quote:

Either way we go we better go in with our eyes open and under no illusions as to how badly this may end up. Its all very well to sympathize with the west, but if history shows anything, it is that we better watch out for ourselves, because none else will.

Sympathising with the west or islamophobia is not what i am talking about.
If Democracy, Freedom of religion, Expression etc are the tenents by which you or I live, Then just like communism, political islam is a threat.
This is has nothing to do with Islam as a religion but rather Islam as a political entity.

09-18-2007, 18:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
Indirect Fire Contributor Join Date: 12-01-06 Location: Colleyville - Grapevine, US Posts: 314 Country:	Farzana Versey, a national traitor and disgrace to India. __________________ I have no idea what I'm doing. Honestly!

09-18-2007, 18:28 PM	#5 (permalink)
Tronic Navajo Code Talker *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-27-04 Location: Patiala, India Posts: 5,361 Country:	Well, for the first one, its because modern India was never "Hindu" India, it has always been just "India". One of many reasons that today we are not a failed state as some of our neighbours. And for the second article, its just nothing more then an empty rant. Its difficult to tell what the author has a problem with; reading through the article, it just seems that the author is really ticked off by seeing successful Muslims in a Hindu dominated or "Kaffir" country. And again, Premji is not the only example, we have had Muslim presidents in the past and do also have a very successful, patriotic and visible community of well off Muslims. But I think the author might be pissed because all these successful Muslims go against the propaganda preached by our dear neighbour that India is a Hindu country where Muslims are persecuted. __________________ *Nabha Sparasham Deeptam* *-Touch The Sky With Glory*

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09-18-2007, 14:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
Adux Banished Join Date: 07-29-05 Location: Cochin Posts: 2,931 Country:	Well it seems one needs a beard, a few jehadi cries to be called a good muslim, in the muslim community? So is War on Terror actually right, did the liberals get it wrong?

09-18-2007, 15:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
Adux Banished Join Date: 07-29-05 Location: Cochin Posts: 2,931 Country:	Why are conspiracy stories such a big hit with Hippie's and islamic terrorists, whats the connection?

09-18-2007, 19:55 PM	#6 (permalink)
SLASH Patron Join Date: 06-10-06 Location: Sydney Posts: 247 Country:	Its a shame that having over 300 million muslims in the country some people still call India a Hindu country....

09-18-2007, 22:55 PM	#8 (permalink)
Amaterasu Contributor Join Date: 05-16-06 Posts: 718	alright!!1 Allahu snackbar is open for business

09-19-2007, 02:44 AM	#11 (permalink)
Adux Banished Join Date: 07-29-05 Location: Cochin Posts: 2,931 Country:	If she thinks english language is colonial, and cant get it into her head that wether we like it or not. This world runs on English. So why write in the language? Hypocrisy. She wants Asim Premji to give all his jobs to muslims and pay charity to jehadi organizations. Asim Premji on the other hand rather give jobs to deserving Indians irrespective of religion. She just cant handle that fact. We all come back to the point any religion is second class to Muslim religion, Therefore secularism is in reality their enemy No.1

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