IAF to add muscle with 40 more Sukhois

Tronic · 02-08-2007, 19:12 PM

Quote:

IAF to add muscle with 40 more Sukhois

BANGALORE: Not too worried about the US decision to sell 36 more F-16s to Pakistan, IAF plans to retain its combat edge by fast-track acquisition of 40 more Sukhoi-30MKIs from Russia as well as faster indigenous production of 140 of these fighters.

The delivery of the first of the three contracted Israeli Phalcon AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) by November this year will, of course, also impart a great punch to IAF's combat capability.

With the $6.5-billion deal to acquire 126 multi-role combat aircraft still some years away, IAF is also going in for progressive upgrades of its Jaguar, MiG-29 and Mirage-2000 fleets to enhance their combat capabilities as well as operational life.

IAF is also on course to acquire 80 more Mi-17 helicopters, 12 VIP helicopters, 10 Cheetah helicopters, six C-130J Super Hercules aircraft and six more mid-air refuelling aircraft, among several other projects.

"Sometimes, we bother too much about what our neighbour (Pakistan) is doing," said IAF chief Air Chief Marshal S P Tyagi on Thursday during the ongoing Aero-India show here.

To tackle the depletion in the number of its fighter squadrons, he said his force expected to begin inducting the 40 new Sukhoi-MKIs from Russia within three years of signing the deal.

"The deal will be signed within this financial year. They will come for a little less than $40 million apiece," said ACM Tyagi. IAF already operates around 50 multi-role Sukhoi-30MKIs, which are based in Pune, Bareilly and Halwara.

Moreover, another 140 of these fighters, which have a cruising speed range of 3,200 km coupled with advanced beyond-visual range combat capabilities, will progressively be built at HAL facilities at Nashik by 2013-2014 at a total cost of $4,809 million. The project completion date was 2017-2018 earlier but it has now been compressed on directions of the Cabinet Committee on Security.

"Yes, there is a requirement of numbers (of fighters) but finally IAF needs capabilities," said ACM Tyagi. IAF is also keeping open the option to buy some second-hand fighters from the international market if it gets the right deal.

"We, for instance, were negotiating with Qatar to buy 12 second-hand Mirage-2000s but it did not work out (due to the very high prices quoted by Qatar)," said the IAF chief.

India and Russia have already agreed to jointly produce the fifth-generation stealth fighter, a project being led by the Sukhoi Design Bureau. "The IAF is very much on board in this project. We have decided what we require in the fifth-generation fighter," said ACM Tyagi.

But in the short-term, IAF is banking upon the Sukhoi-30MKIs to jack up its fighter strength, which has touched a low of around 30 squadrons from a high of 40 some years ago due to phasing out of older MiG variants. The number will touch 28 over the next two-three years before it starts to rise once again.

IAF to add muscle with 40 more Sukhois-India-NEWS-The Times of India

Even more??? Didn't we already order like a couple dozen extras before aswell...

texasjohn · 02-08-2007, 19:20 PM

I think this is the batch ordered from Russia as HAL was slow in delivery and overrun on cost. Archer might have more detail

Tronic · 02-08-2007, 19:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texasjohn

I think this is the batch ordered from Russia as HAL was slow in delivery and overrun on cost. Archer might have more detail

Ah yes, I think it is that same batch...

Archer · 02-08-2007, 22:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texasjohn

I think this is the batch ordered from Russia as HAL was slow in delivery and overrun on cost. Archer might have more detail

Hi TJ, HALs production has been actually sped up- it was to deliver 140 Sukhois by 2017-18, but it will now deliver them by 2014. These will be in addition to the (approximately) 50 Sukhois already in service, of which 18 will be replaced with new build MKIs by Irkut.

So the total is 190.

These 40 Sukhois are actually being brought in, because of the delay in the MRCA deal. The IAF has phased out the MiG-23BN, the MF is all but relegated to target towing, and a substantial number of MiG-21s have also left. The end result is that from a 39.5 squadron AF, the IAF might well dip to a 30 Squadron one. Given the delay in the MRCA, the IAF has asked for the following:

-12 Qatari Mirage 2000H's, plus a few more that the French can spare
-40 MKIs
- More MiG-29's
-More MiG-21 airframes upgraded to Bison standard

At the end the IAF will have a 230 Flanker force, which alone should give it a huge boost in combat power.

The CCS has cleared the MKIs and negotiations are on for the first. More MiG-29s seem unlikely, ditto for the Bisons.

texasjohn · 02-09-2007, 00:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer

Hi TJ, HALs production has been actually sped up- it was to deliver 140 Sukhois by 2017-18, but it will now deliver them by 2014. These will be in addition to the (approximately) 50 Sukhois already in service, of which 18 will be replaced with new build MKIs by Irkut.

So the total is 190.

These 40 Sukhois are actually being brought in, because of the delay in the MRCA deal. The IAF has phased out the MiG-23BN, the MF is all but relegated to target towing, and a substantial number of MiG-21s have also left. The end result is that from a 39.5 squadron AF, the IAF might well dip to a 30 Squadron one. Given the delay in the MRCA, the IAF has asked for the following:

-12 Qatari Mirage 2000H's, plus a few more that the French can spare
-40 MKIs
- More MiG-29's
-More MiG-21 airframes upgraded to Bison standard

At the end the IAF will have a 230 Flanker force, which alone should give it a huge boost in combat power.

The CCS has cleared the MKIs and negotiations are on for the first. More MiG-29s seem unlikely, ditto for the Bisons.

My first concern was reports that the MKIs built by HAL did not have all the weapon systems installed and were awaiting OEM parts. Any truth to that?

I also did not realize squardon strength was dropping that quickly. I can sense the urgency the IAF feels.

How is the Bison upgrade going? in tandem with buying additional SU-30s, induction of LCA, upgrading the Jag weapons suite, etc. with these issues in mind, I hope?

Archer · 02-09-2007, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texasjohn

My first concern was reports that the MKIs built by HAL did not have all the weapon systems installed and were awaiting OEM parts. Any truth to that?

All MKIs delivered by HAL till date are from SKD/CKD assemblies, with the fourth phase (from raw materials) beginning this year. So they are delivered with Mk3 Bars radar, fully functioning IRST, fully functional weapon controls system (with the local mission computer etc) and munitions package. The reports were typical journalism in India- they relied on audit reports from a couple of years back, but have been over taken by current events. The Litening Laser Designation Pod has been integrated, and so has the HADF (High Accuracy Direction Finder) pod, which is a locally built EW system meant for SEAD work.

Quote:

I also did not realize squardon strength was dropping that quickly. I can sense the urgency the IAF feels.

Yes, whilst combat potential has undergone a quantum shift with the MKI, the number of airframes is a very serious issue for the IAF. Retiring the MiGs wouldnt have been an issue if the MRCA deal had gone to plan, but events overtook it

Quote:

How is the Bison upgrade going? in tandem with buying additional SU-30s, induction of LCA, upgrading the Jag weapons suite, etc. with these issues in mind, I hope?

Bison upgrade should be over this year
The serviceability was initially just 30% at introduction, but rose to 50-70% for differing squadrons last year, and should stabilise at the standard 70-80% level this year.
Its a very potent aircraft in the subcontinental context, 57 Km radar, with a R-77 BVR ability, plus R73Es, Helmet sight, EW suite, low signature, and PGM capability. Against exercises with USAF F-16C Block 52's both aircraft were reportedly detecting each other at similar ranges, which is pretty good for the upgrade package. One limitation is range, no In flight refuelling leaves it with its original short legs.

MarquezRazor · 02-09-2007, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archer

57 Km radar

I thought it was 75 km for Kopyo-M?

Archer · 02-09-2007, 02:39 AM

we dont have the kopyo-m, but the kopyo-21

MarquezRazor · 02-09-2007, 02:46 AM

Then why is this written at ACIG?

Quote:

One of the latest entrants is the MiG-21 Bison (formerly known as the MiG-21-93/UPG), the ultimate upgrade to the ageing MiG-21bis in order to bring it up to modern standards. The upgrade mainly revolves around the Phazotron Kopyo-M radar and integrated BVR attack capability with R-77 BVRAAMs. Other features include a SURA HMS, a semi-glass cockpit and a Sextant Totem-3000 Ring laser gyro nav. system with GPS, to mention a few. Note the conformal countermeasure dispensers, the new Tarang RWR's antennae on the tailfin and the single piece windshield

Archer · 02-09-2007, 02:49 AM

harry is mistaken about that..the russians are not always the best of communicators

all phaza, sokol, mig literature subsequently refers to the kopyo-21 on indian bisons

the kopyo-m was offered for the LCA (its clearly insufficient but they tried their luck) and follow on batches of bisons..if we were to go down that path..

MarquezRazor · 02-09-2007, 02:54 AM

okay...

MarquezRazor · 02-09-2007, 02:57 AM

Right in Kalaikunda the F-16s and Bisons detected each other at about 60 kms apart.Anyway I am thinkin Bisons could possibly get launch authorisation earlier.

Archer · 02-09-2007, 16:20 PM

5G program

Quote:

Times for Realization of Key Stages in Program for Creation of Fifth Generation Fighter to Be Maintained

Times for realization of key stages in the program for creation of the fifth generation fighter will be maintained. In particular, flight tests will begin in 2009, as was planned earlier, the Sukhoy Aviation Holding Company general director, Mikhail Pogosyan, reported earlier at the Aero India 2007 air salon while commenting on a question of an ARMS-TASS correspondent about possible time adjustments of the project in connection with hooking India up with it.

“We think that the inclusion of the Indian partners will in no way delay the times for the program’s realization. Moreover, it will assure a reduction of the times owing to the unification of facilities and potentials,” M. Pogosyan said.

According to him, “the program for creation of the fifth generation airplane will be developed over an extended period – 30 – 40 years. This will make it possible to distribute the work volumes in different ways between the partners: cooperation at some stages will be provided in a 50 – 50 proportion, in others the distribution of shares may look different.”

“Cooperation with India on the fifth generation fighter already has begun. We have done a great deal of work on discussing requirements for such airplanes. There have been consultations and discussions of the project’s intergovernmental agreement. Preliminary discussion of questions of cooperation have begun. I think that based on those political understandings which were reached during Russian president Vladimir Putin’s recent visit to India and vice premier and defense minister Sergey Ivanov, joint work on this program will accelerated,” M. Pogosyan emphasized.

The Indian side has expressed the intention to participate in the project in all directions – airframe, avionics, armament, power plant, after-sales servicing and further modifications of this airplane, the Sukhoy head reported.

According to him, “a ship-based variant, specialized variants and a twin-place version of the airplane will be created based on the basic single-place aircraft.” There is a large field for cooperation here, and the positive experience that we have on the Su-30MKI program is a guarantee of successful work to on the fifth generation airplane,” M. Pogosyan thinks.

“Computerized avionics complexes and software developed by the Indians have been installed on the Su-30MKI fighter. A high engineering level has been created within the framework of Su-30MKI licensed production in India, both in the area of airframe design and in the area of the airplane’s individual systems. Therefore, cooperation with India will make possible the successful realization of the fifth generation airplane project,” M. Pogosyan noted.

At the same time, according to him, “We are not ruling out the possibility of drawing Western European partners to the project for individual directions. The Sukhoy company is a recognized world leader in the area of military technologies. Therefore, we have all the possibilities for the development partnerships. The main thing is that we have a foundation on the basis of which we can advance this project and make it possible for the partners to enter it gradually,” M. Pogosyan concluded.

Source: 09.02.07, ARMS-TASS

So, the Sukhoi PAK-FA it is.

And DRDO wants to take the LCA forward with a MCA and an UCAV. Once the LCA gets FOC, I'd wager their program might be cleared as well.

Harish Kumar · 02-13-2007, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tronic

IAF to add muscle with 40 more Sukhois-India-NEWS-The Times of India

Even more??? Didn't we already order like a couple dozen extras before aswell...

Yes ! Thats what even I am wondering !

I remember the Su-30 MKI deal was 40 aircraft produced in Russia delivered to Indian and another 140 produced at HAL.Now is it another batch of 40 aircraft being ordered from Russia or is it the same earlier batch.

In total is it 140 +40 = 180 a/c or 140+40+40 =220 a/c ?

Can anybody clarify precisely ?

Archer · 02-13-2007, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harish Kumar

Yes ! Thats what even I am wondering !

I remember the Su-30 MKI deal was 40 aircraft produced in Russia delivered to Indian and another 140 produced at HAL.Now is it another batch of 40 aircraft being ordered from Russia or is it the same earlier batch.

In total is it 140 +40 = 180 a/c or 140+40+40 =220 a/c ?

Can anybody clarify precisely ?

40 from russia, plus 10 more when available (an export order for russia didnt come through, india picked them up)..so 50
140 to be produced at HAL by 2014-15.
S0 190.

Now 40 more.

So 230.

02-09-2007, 02:49 AM	#10 (permalink)
Archer *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 10-13-03 Posts: 2,888	harry is mistaken about that..the russians are not always the best of communicators all phaza, sokol, mig literature subsequently refers to the kopyo-21 on indian bisons the kopyo-m was offered for the LCA (its clearly insufficient but they tried their luck) and follow on batches of bisons..if we were to go down that path.. Last edited by Archer : 02-09-2007 at 02:53 AM.

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02-08-2007, 19:20 PM	#2 (permalink)
texasjohn *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 07-28-06 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 1,048 Country:	I think this is the batch ordered from Russia as HAL was slow in delivery and overrun on cost. Archer might have more detail

02-09-2007, 02:39 AM	#8 (permalink)
Archer *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 10-13-03 Posts: 2,888	we dont have the kopyo-m, but the kopyo-21

02-09-2007, 02:54 AM	#11 (permalink)
MarquezRazor *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-03-06 Posts: 1,269	okay...

02-09-2007, 02:57 AM	#12 (permalink)
MarquezRazor *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 12-03-06 Posts: 1,269	Right in Kalaikunda the F-16s and Bisons detected each other at about 60 kms apart.Anyway I am thinkin Bisons could possibly get launch authorisation earlier.

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