its a time for india to worry now...

vishv29 · 11-09-2004, 03:00 AM

goerge bush finally won the white house again.and now he will surely keep his promise to pakistan for the sell of advanced F-16's. these fighters are far superior than any indian fighter including MKI's in electronic warfare systems. actually russian hardware cannot match american hardware in any aspect,especially in electronic warfare. so i think its a time for us to think seriously to answer this threat posed by possible pakistani F-16's.

ajaybhutani · 11-09-2004, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vishv29

goerge bush finally won the white house again.and now he will surely keep his promise to pakistan for the sell of advanced F-16's. these fighters are far superior than any indian fighter including MKI's in electronic warfare systems. actually russian hardware cannot match american hardware in any aspect,especially in electronic warfare. so i think its a time for us to think seriously to answer this threat posed by possible pakistani F-16's.

Well i wouild suggest u to look at F16 vs SU30 MKI thread to get a berif idea about MKI's capabilities.

Lemme elaborate a bit .
1. In this years cope india exercises where our SU30MK took part we performed considerably better than american F15's . which were probably with the AESA radars too.
2. Furthermore the agility of our mki/mk is much more than that of even F22 ( due to its two directional TVC).
3. We will soon have Phalcons which will make their whole procurement of even F16 blk60 (if they get it ) worthless.
4. they might not get the high end versions of F16's. Frankly it is quite difficult that they will get somethin like AESA in their fighters . Aspaksitanis are famous to give away american tech to chineese as samples.So we dont need to worry about their tech superiority.
5. The A2A missiles and A2G missiles available in paksitani inventory is real **** .I think they have recently started inducting bvr missiles. And as we all know the americans they wont be very enthusiastic in giving pakistanis good missiles. (say somethin comparable to R77 versions we have . )
6. Paksitan cannot induct F16 in large numbers (its too costly for them :D). So by the time they have some 40-60 F16 delviered . we would have inducted another 30-40 MKI's . making some 80 MKI 60 Mig29 & 60 M2K. all comparable/better than F16.
7.add to the number another few M2K's frm the mirage deal(indians will surely hurry up with it if the F16 deal is signed ).
8.Our pilot skills can be really graded as better than theirs considering the fact that they are new to even BVR's.
9. Well the recent exercises with Singapore has also proved in favour of indians.
10. As our air cheif said a few days ago . Pakistan is too small do make us worry about it .

Franco Lolan · 11-09-2004, 08:59 AM

exactly. f16 in comparison to modern fighters now, f16 falls pitifully behind

lulldapull · 11-09-2004, 14:03 PM

Yeah my sentiments precisely too franco!

The PAF is an 80's AF dealing with new millenium Sukhoi su-30MKI's!

Its not even a God-damn fight anymore! The 18 x F-16's this piece of **** Bush wil give Pakistan have to face 60 MKI's, 45 Mirage-2000H's and another 75 mig-29's!

That makes a total of 31 older Block 15 F-16A's and these 18 worthless Block 52's ( if Dubbya goes ahead with his hollow rhetoric ) against more than 200 IAF 4th gen front line types, and already the IAF is wetting its undies!

They know the PAF is a well trained AF!

Besides Pakistan should look towards China and try to procure the Su-30MKK, or the J-10! The U.S. government is an unreliable supplier of defence hardware, with its hands tied down by special interests and christian fundos! It will be a very bad idea for Pakistan to acquire anything from the U.S. anymore. After 10 years of biased sanctions against Pakistan for having a nuclear program, and not penalising India or Israel for its own declared nuclear weapons, the U.S. government has earned the mistrust and hatred of pakitani's!

The U.S. government cannot be trusted by Pakistan! They have double standards for each and every situation!

Musharraf should reject these worthless F-16's, even if Bush fukking donates them, because in a year or so the FC-1/ JF-17 will start coming off the assembly lines, and is roughly in the same class. We don't need the F-16 anymore.

Asim Aquil · 11-09-2004, 14:25 PM

Even the Air Chief of Pakistan isn't very upbeat about any possible F-16 deals. Everyone knows, The F-16s are old, the MKI's are new.

Systems.... hmmm the only way the F-16s would put up a fight against those MKI's are if all the systems implemented in the F-16Us (U for UAE I guess), are given to Pakistan as well. Which I doubt is happening, which I believe, makes the whole deal worthless, anyway.

The airchief said, he'll look for "F-16 plus one". He knows PAF needs another fighter, to combat the Sukhois, not F-16.

zulu · 11-09-2004, 23:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vishv29

these fighters are far superior than any indian fighter including MKI's in electronic warfare systems

read a little more about MKI's electronic warfare systems. your misconceptions will evaporate.

Asim Aquil · 11-10-2004, 07:22 AM

LDP, couldn't agree with you more. If its the same old same old, then its valuable money that could be poured into the JF-17s being wasted on 80s tech.

Hawk_eye · 11-12-2004, 13:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco Lolan

exactly. f16 in comparison to modern fighters now, f16 falls pitifully behind

Well pointed out:

THis article covers well all those issues raised, including the one about the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP).

http://www.defense-update.com/featur...6-upgrades.htm

lemontree · 11-14-2004, 09:59 AM

It would make sense if PAF inducts more Chinese made fighters, as PRC has been more loyal to Pak govt. The F-16 is no dought a good fighter, but whats the point if sanctions blunt its efficacy.

About, the point that Indians are scared of the F-16s being likely to be sold to PAF. No, its not fear the IAF has immence respect for the PAF fighter pilots and their abilities.

Ray · 11-14-2004, 12:23 PM

I am so worried that I can't sleep.

That makes all Happy?

Good.

ajaybhutani · 11-15-2004, 05:16 AM

btw what is JF17's status . Has it flown with a full digital FBW. as it crossed teh soudn barrier . Frankly i havent haerd a single news about its status since long . Please post somthing u guys know

Asim Aquil · 11-15-2004, 09:04 AM

yeap, done all that... its in Production in China.

Now a twin seater, trainer has gone in production as well. The infrastructure to build them in Pakistan is underworks too, since Pakistan's responsible for the bigger orders, later on.

Haven't you seen the JF-17 do all those cool loops, and dives and all the other manouvers video? They'll be inducted by end of next year or early 2006, hopefully. I'm looking forward to a video of the thing in action, firing and bombing.....

ajaybhutani · 11-15-2004, 14:30 PM

u forgot to paste the link to JF17s status. Please do so .

Asim Aquil · 11-15-2004, 15:27 PM

You mean the link to status.jf-17.com? Unfortunately for us, Chengdu and PAC don't run an internet weblog.

The news is an year old, won't be found on google that easily. Go through www.pakistanidefence.com, I think they should have it. Or some Chinese websites. Search for the video...

ajaybhutani · 11-15-2004, 16:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asim Aquil

You mean the link to status.jf-17.com? Unfortunately for us, Chengdu and PAC don't run an internet weblog.

The news is an year old, won't be found on google that easily. Go through www.pakistanidefence.com, I think they should have it. Or some Chinese websites. Search for the video...

Well i know that JF 17 has flown what i wanted to ask is was it flown with full digital FBW?? when did it break the speed barrier ? how many test flights ? how many flight hours ?... Avionics integration etc .etc bec as u say it will be inducted by end of 2006 so a lot must have been done as i m under the impression that a fighter needs to fly some 1000 hours to get operational clearance

Some stuff i found on pakdefence are this ( from archives aug 2003 upto today)

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/news...August2003.htm

Quote:

Earlier, giving a briefing about the aircraft, the Chief Project Director JF-17, Air Vice Marshal Shahid Latif said the project was started in collaboration with China to gain exposure in fighter aircraft design and development through participation in the programme, to develop local aviation industry by co-producing the aircraft and to gain self-sufficiency in the production of fighter aircraft. Highlighting the importance of the aircraft, he said, "The JF-17 was planned to be the replacement of ageing fleet of the PAF. JF-17 is a lightweight, all weather, multi-role aircraft, which can fly at the speed of Mach 1.6 and has high thrust to weight ratio."

He said the aircraft would be able to engage targets at all speeds and altitudes within the conventional flying envelope. "In surface attack and interdiction role the aircraft will be capable of striking at long distances." Among the existing PAF aircraft, he said, this performance is matched by the F-16s only. "It is installed with an advanced control system, which is a mix of conventional and fly-by-wire controls making it highly agile and maneuverable."

and

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/news.../April2004.htm

Quote:

PAF Pilots Fly JF-17 Prototype 03 In China

April 09, 2004: Pakistan Air Force test pilots, Squadron Leader Muhammad Ehsanul Haq and Squadron Leader Rashid Habib, flew two sorties of 30 minutes each in the skies of Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan province of China. The day signifies an important day in the history of aviation in Pakistan. The PAF test pilots flew the newly manufactured single-seat JF-17 "Thunder" prototype-1 aircraft for the first time. During the flight, the pilots evaluated the flight performance of the aircraft in different phases of flight and reported that they were extremely happy with the excellent performance of the aircraft in all phases of its flight.

With these flights, the Pakistani pilots have joined the chosen team of "Thunder" test pilots, which already includes the Chinese test pilots. Therefore, from now on, the PAF pilots will regularly participate in the test-flights of JF-17 aircraft alongside their Chinese counterparts to complete the "flight test and evaluation" phase of JF-17 aircraft. The JF-17 fighter had made its maiden flight last year, and tests will continue before the aircraft is scheduled for production. "The series production of the fighters is scheduled to commence towards the end of 2006," PAF spokesman Sarfaraz Khan said.

He said that in the first phase, five prototype fighters would be manufactured, three for flying and two for ground testing, and a small batch of 16 jets would be produced by the end of 2005. The "flight testing" of new aircraft is a highly complex process, which involves days of planning by a team of pilots and engineers. Special sensors are installed before the flight on the aircraft, which do not only monitor the flight performance of the aircraft and the performance of its various sub-systems during the flight, but they also transmit this data to a ground station.

With the help of this data, the team of "flight test engineers and pilots" sitting in the ground-test-station monitors the flight of the aircraft and carries out a thorough analysis with the help of highly advanced computers, before the next flight. Two of the PAF’s test- engineers are already involved in the complete flight-testing phase of the aircraft. Test flight of the JF-17 "Thunder" aircraft by the PAF pilots in China also signifies the fraternity of Sino-Pak relations since it is for the first time in the history of Chinese aviation that two foreign pilots have flown a prototype aircraft in that country.

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) is preparing to begin assembling next year its first Chinese-developed JF-17 lightweight fighters and K-8 Karakorum advanced trainers for the Pakistani air force and for potential export customers. The company's aircraft manufacturing plant in Kamra aims to build 50% of each aircraft sold outside China. It produces just under 20% of the K-8, and participates in the Chengdu Aircraft-led FC-1/JF-17 development program.

PAF Test Pilots Create History By JF-17 Thunder Aircraft

April 10, 2004:Two PAF test pilots created history by flying the newly manufactured single-seat JF-17 Thunder prototype-1 aircraft for the first time. Pakistan Air Force test pilots, Squadron Leader Muhammad Ehsan ul Haq and Squadron Leader Rashid Habib flew two sorties of 30 minutes each in the skies of Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan province of China. It signifies an important day in the history of aviation in Pakistan.

The pilots evaluated the flight performance of the aircraft in different phases of flight. After landing, both the pilots reported that they were extremely happy with the excellent performance of the aircraft in all phases of its flight.

With these flights, the Pakistani pilots have joined the chosen team of Thunder test pilots, which already includes the Chinese test pilots. From now, PAF pilots will regularly participate in the test-flights of JF-17 aircraft alongside their Chinese counter parts to complete the flight test and evaluation phase of JF-17 aircraft.

This is all i could find in the whole set of archives .It dsnt say what all was tested in the three prototypes has it crossed teh sound barrier is it statically unstable like ty0phoon or statically stable(as taht affects agility a lot)

I have even tried to google and it hasnt helped at all. It would be nive if u could give me the links where u got ur info from.

11-09-2004, 03:00 AM	#1 (permalink)
vishv29 Banished Join Date: 05-07-04 Posts: 93	its a time for india to worry now... goerge bush finally won the white house again.and now he will surely keep his promise to pakistan for the sell of advanced F-16's. these fighters are far superior than any indian fighter including MKI's in electronic warfare systems. actually russian hardware cannot match american hardware in any aspect,especially in electronic warfare. so i think its a time for us to think seriously to answer this threat posed by possible pakistani F-16's.

11-09-2004, 14:03 PM	#4 (permalink)
lulldapull Banished Join Date: 08-06-03 Posts: 1,007	Yeah my sentiments precisely too franco! The PAF is an 80's AF dealing with new millenium Sukhoi su-30MKI's! Its not even a God-damn fight anymore! The 18 x F-16's this piece of **** Bush wil give Pakistan have to face 60 MKI's, 45 Mirage-2000H's and another 75 mig-29's! That makes a total of 31 older Block 15 F-16A's and these 18 worthless Block 52's ( if Dubbya goes ahead with his hollow rhetoric ) against more than 200 IAF 4th gen front line types, and already the IAF is wetting its undies! They know the PAF is a well trained AF! Besides Pakistan should look towards China and try to procure the Su-30MKK, or the J-10! The U.S. government is an unreliable supplier of defence hardware, with its hands tied down by special interests and christian fundos! It will be a very bad idea for Pakistan to acquire anything from the U.S. anymore. After 10 years of biased sanctions against Pakistan for having a nuclear program, and not penalising India or Israel for its own declared nuclear weapons, the U.S. government has earned the mistrust and hatred of pakitani's! The U.S. government cannot be trusted by Pakistan! They have double standards for each and every situation! Musharraf should reject these worthless F-16's, even if Bush fukking donates them, because in a year or so the FC-1/ JF-17 will start coming off the assembly lines, and is roughly in the same class. We don't need the F-16 anymore. Last edited by lulldapull : 11-09-2004 at 14:07 PM.

11-14-2004, 09:59 AM	#9 (permalink)
lemontree Bandaid *Military Professional* Join Date: 10-04-04 Location: India Posts: 5,918	It would make sense if PAF inducts more Chinese made fighters, as PRC has been more loyal to Pak govt. The F-16 is no dought a good fighter, but whats the point if sanctions blunt its efficacy. About, the point that Indians are scared of the F-16s being likely to be sold to PAF. No, its not fear the IAF has immence respect for the PAF fighter pilots and their abilities. __________________ Cheers!...on the rocks!!

11-14-2004, 12:23 PM	#10 (permalink)
Ray Postmaster General *Military Professional* Join Date: 08-20-03 Posts: 27,232 Country:	I am so worried that I can't sleep. That makes all Happy? Good. __________________ "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination." I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. HAKUNA MATATA

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11-09-2004, 08:59 AM	#3 (permalink)
Franco Lolan *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-29-04 Posts: 789	exactly. f16 in comparison to modern fighters now, f16 falls pitifully behind

11-09-2004, 14:25 PM	#5 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	Even the Air Chief of Pakistan isn't very upbeat about any possible F-16 deals. Everyone knows, The F-16s are old, the MKI's are new. Systems.... hmmm the only way the F-16s would put up a fight against those MKI's are if all the systems implemented in the F-16Us (U for UAE I guess), are given to Pakistan as well. Which I doubt is happening, which I believe, makes the whole deal worthless, anyway. The airchief said, he'll look for "F-16 plus one". He knows PAF needs another fighter, to combat the Sukhois, not F-16.

11-10-2004, 07:22 AM	#7 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	LDP, couldn't agree with you more. If its the same old same old, then its valuable money that could be poured into the JF-17s being wasted on 80s tech.

11-15-2004, 05:16 AM	#11 (permalink)
ajaybhutani *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-05-04 Posts: 2,100	btw what is JF17's status . Has it flown with a full digital FBW. as it crossed teh soudn barrier . Frankly i havent haerd a single news about its status since long . Please post somthing u guys know

11-15-2004, 09:04 AM	#12 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	yeap, done all that... its in Production in China. Now a twin seater, trainer has gone in production as well. The infrastructure to build them in Pakistan is underworks too, since Pakistan's responsible for the bigger orders, later on. Haven't you seen the JF-17 do all those cool loops, and dives and all the other manouvers video? They'll be inducted by end of next year or early 2006, hopefully. I'm looking forward to a video of the thing in action, firing and bombing.....

11-15-2004, 14:30 PM	#13 (permalink)
ajaybhutani *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 09-05-04 Posts: 2,100	u forgot to paste the link to JF17s status. Please do so .

11-15-2004, 15:27 PM	#14 (permalink)
Asim Aquil Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 06-11-04 Location: Dubai Posts: 8,135 Country:	You mean the link to status.jf-17.com? Unfortunately for us, Chengdu and PAC don't run an internet weblog. The news is an year old, won't be found on google that easily. Go through www.pakistanidefence.com, I think they should have it. Or some Chinese websites. Search for the video...

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