India Says It Will Keep Nuclear Test Option Open

Endangered · 12-20-2006, 01:06 AM

New Delhi (AFP) Dec 19, 2006

India said on Tuesday it will keep open the option to conduct more nuclear weapons tests despite a deal with the United States to access long-denied Western civilian nuclear technology. "We will keep our options open to conduct nuclear tests and the decision will be left to the wisdom of the decision-making authority at that point of time," Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee announced in parliament.
"We will not like to foreclose the option," he said during a debate on the deal.

US President George W. Bush signed the controversial pact into law Monday and hailed it as a sign of warm ties between the world's two largest democracies.

The agreement will pave the way for US sales of nuclear fuel and know-how to India for the first time since New Delhi tested a nuclear device in 1974, becoming an international atomic pariah.

Mukherjee's comments came after opposition leaders warned the deal could stump the nuclear programme in India. In 1998 India exploded nuclear weapons and then imposed a unilateral moratorium on further testing.

Some Western critics warn that exempting India from the US ban on nuclear exports to non-signatories of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) may hurt US efforts to confront North Korea and Iran over their atomic ambitions.

Mukherjee attacked the NPT and said India, which declared itself a fully-fledged nuclear weapons state after 1998, would not sign the accord.

"We consider it a fraud treaty which is creating a class where the nuclear weapons states will have the right of stockpiling, experiments. We refuse to accept this discriminatory treatment," he told parliament's upper house.

Allaying fears voiced by opposition leaders as well as a section of India's scientific community, Mukherjee also said the government would not accept any pre-conditions in the treaty that would cap India's strategic programme.

"This is a civil nuclear agreement and not an arms control measure," Mukherjee said.

"We are not accepting any additional commitment and we are just sticking to the voluntary moratorium which we have declared. Also, we are not going to accept any treaty-bound commitment," Mukherjee said.

The foreign minister said India and the US would now embark on "hard negotiations" before the start of supply of American nuclear technology to India.

"In my mind the real negotiation will start now because we will have to enter into an 123 Agreement with the US," he said.

The pact will be the sole binding document defining the terms of the anticipated nuclear commerce arising from the deal, which the US Chamber of Commerce says could open up 100 billion dollars in opportunities for American businesses.

The bilateral agreement will have to be approved again by the US Congress, controlled next year by Democrats, who are known for their strong non-proliferation views.

Link

y_raj · 12-20-2006, 08:55 AM

I have heard that the treaty banned tests but had escape doors too.
BTW democrats have been good to India. they would certainly back the plan.

12-20-2006, 09:04 AM

Quote:

democrats

r u sure?
they r already furious over outsourcing.

MarquezRazor · 12-20-2006, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by y_raj

I have heard that the treaty banned tests but had escape doors too.
BTW democrats have been good to India. they would certainly back the plan.

I think Bush Junior has done more for Indian interests than all of the previous combined...

12-20-2006, 10:46 AM

lol yes Before signing the deal infront of media and everyone Bush pledged that 104 section etc etc are not on indias foreign policy etc etc.

you should have seen the eye brows of the guys standing in their back when he was saying that.

northface · 12-20-2006, 11:46 AM

Quote:

(3) TERMINATION OF NUCLEAR TRANSFERS TO INDIA- Notwithstanding the entry into force of an agreement for nuclear cooperation with India pursuant to section 123 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S.C. 2153) and approved pursuant to this Act, exports of nuclear and nuclear-related material, equipment, or technology to India shall be terminated if India makes any materially significant transfer of--

(A) nuclear or nuclear-related material, equipment, or technology that does not conform to NSG guidelines, or

(B) ballistic missiles or missile-related equipment or technology that does not conform to MTCR guidelines,

unless the President determines that cessation of such exports would be seriously prejudicial to the achievement of United States nonproliferation objectives or otherwise jeopardize the common defense and security.

if in the future you have to sell Brahmos or an ABM system..you'll have to seek permission from the US Prez.

This is for info..

Quote:

(5) GROWTH IN INDIA'S MILITARY FISSILE MATERIAL PRODUCTION-

(A) IN GENERAL- Not later than one year after the date on which an agreement for nuclear cooperation between the United States and India is approved by Congress under section 4(f) and every year thereafter, the President shall submit to the Committee on International Relations of the House of Representatives and the Committee on Foreign Relations of the Senate a report that--

(i) measures the effectiveness of the civil nuclear cooperation agreement in achieving the goals and objectives described in section 2; and

(ii) assesses the relative level of India's nuclear fissile material production compared to the previous year.

(B) CONTENTS- The report described in subparagraph (A) shall also include information relating to--

(i) the amount of natural uranium India has mined and milled during the previous year;

(ii) the amount of electricity India's civilian reactors have produced during the previous year;

(iii) the amount of domestic natural uranium India has used in its declared civilian reactors to produce electricity during the previous year;

(iv) the amount of fissile material India has produced for military purposes during the previous year;

(v) the amount of domestic natural uranium and domestic enrichment capacity India has used to produce such fissile material;

(vi) the amount of domestic uranium India has otherwise stockpiled for possible civil or military use;

(vii) an identification of any changes with regard to these quantities from the previous year; and

(viii) any additional qualitative factors determined to be relevant with respect to subparagraph (A), as appropriate, such as the location of production facilities.

(C) PREPARATION; FORM OF REPORT- The report should rely on public information to the extent possible. The report shall include a classified annex if necessary.

I got this from this source:

http://www.theorator.com/bills109/hr5682.html

PS: This is dated June..some new amendmends may have been added.

12-20-2006, 11:50 AM

Quote:

if in the future you have to sell Brahmos or an ABM system..you'll have to seek permission from the US Prez.

Brahmos is not under MCTR, ABM doesnt come under MCTR does it?
So now MCTR remains a core issue too.what the hell.....

Do you guys think MMS is the mole BJP was referring to?

highsea · 12-20-2006, 13:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joey

...ABM doesnt come under MCTR does it?

It does if the missile exceeds the 500kg/300km threshold. There are some additional technology related items that can fall under the guidelines also.

Quote:

Greatest restraint is applied to what are known as Category I items. These items include complete rocket systems (including ballistic missiles, space launch vehicles and sounding rockets) and unmanned air vehicle systems (including cruise missiles systems, target and reconnaissance drones) with capabilities exceeding a 300km/500kg range/payload threshold; production facilities for such systems; and major sub-systems including rocket stages, re-entry vehicles, rocket engines, guidance systems and warhead mechanisms.

The remainder of the annex is regarded as Category II, which includes complete rocket systems (including ballistic missiles systems, space launch vehicles and sounding rockets) and unmanned air vehicles (including cruise missile systems, target drones, and reconnaissance drones) not covered in item I, capable of a maximum range equal to or greater than, 300km. Also included are a wide range of equipment, material, and technologies, most of which have uses other than for missiles capable of delivering WMD. While still agreeing to exercise restraint, partners have greater flexibility in the treatment of Category II transfer applications.

gamercube · 12-20-2006, 18:19 PM

First of all, isn't that in the non-binding section of he agreement? Even if it isn't, I think the key point here is that all nuclear co-operation with the US will be terminated if we do any of those things. This is assuming that we import any reactors or fuel from the US in the first place. From what I've read, senior government officials are saying that this deal is only a way for India to get into the nuclear non-proliferation mainstream.

After this deal is concluded, there is no obligation on us to buy reactors or fuel from the US. We can conclude separate agreements with Russia, France, the UK etc to satisfy our fuel requirements. If we do not have any equipment of american origin, then we do not have to worry about any of the clauses in this deal. For example, we can use Russian fuel for all our reactors, and then test a nuclear weapon, and the US won't be able to do ****.

This deal is only a door for India to buy nuclear fuel legitimately from our friends.

omon · 12-20-2006, 18:30 PM

Why would they need to test nukes, don't they know how they work by now?
do you need a nuke warhead to see how far the missle flyes?
i'd love to see real missle tests by russia and us. we both should fire a dummy missile toward each other(aim it in the desert) and see whose anti missle shield realy work. that wouldn't do any harm to eather of us, but we will learn a great deal about our defence line. those tests on drones don't tell real story. it's not the same as hitting a real missile coming your way.

gamercube · 12-20-2006, 18:58 PM

India does not have megaton nukes like the other nuclear powers do. The thermonuclear weapon design of the Indian scientists was only supposed to have a maximum yield of 200 kilotons, whereas the USSR had tested a 50 megaton nuclear device. Besides, India does not have MIRVs. Also, any nuclear power would need to constantly develop new designs according to their needs at a particular time. The US has developed computer simulation software to be used on supercomputers to design new types of nukes. India has only partially mastered that technology.

northface · 12-20-2006, 19:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamercube

First of all, isn't that in the non-binding section of he agreement? Even if it isn't, I think the key point here is that all nuclear co-operation with the US will be terminated if we do any of those things. This is assuming that we import any reactors or fuel from the US in the first place.
After this deal is concluded, there is no obligation on us to buy reactors or fuel from the US. We can conclude separate agreements with Russia, France, the UK etc to satisfy our fuel requirements. If we do not have any equipment of american origin, then we do not have to worry about any of the clauses in this deal. For example, we can use Russian fuel for all our reactors, and then test a nuclear weapon, and the US won't be able to do ****.

This deal is only a door for India to buy nuclear fuel legitimately from our friends.

No ...you did'nt read..even if you buy elsewhere or source your fuel from where ever..

Quote:

(4) PROHIBITION ON NUCLEAR TRANSFERS TO INDIA- If nuclear transfers to India are restricted pursuant to this Act, the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, or the Arms Export Control Act, the President should seek to prevent the transfer to India of nuclear equipment, materials, or technology from other participating governments in the NSG or from any other source.

You're out of it all. You are still on different terms than France,China, UK, US or Russia. You're boxed still.

gamercube · 12-20-2006, 19:48 PM

That is.......unbelievable. I was under the impression that all that stuff was in the non-binding section. While researching on the subject, I found this excellent article by Mr. Arun Shourie:

http://indianexpress.com/sunday/story/11160.html

I really think now that this is a bad deal for us, at least until the US changes the relevant sections in the legislation. I fail to understand how the Congress government "welcomed" the passage of the deal. I understand that MM Singh is concerned about the energy crunch faced by India, and that lack of energy supplies may put restrictions on India's economy, but someone needs to tell him that national security is far above any considerations of economic growth!

I can only hope now that this deal falls through, or that the Left withdraws its support to the government over this issue.

gamercube · 12-20-2006, 20:22 PM

Interestingly, it seems that Manmohan Singh was at the forefront of denouncing the Pokhran II tests in Parliament. Sounds all the more ominous for our national security.

y_raj · 12-21-2006, 13:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omon

Why would they need to test nukes, don't they know how they work by now?
do you need a nuke warhead to see how far the missle flyes?
i'd love to see real missle tests by russia and us. we both should fire a dummy missile toward each other(aim it in the desert) and see whose anti missle shield realy work. that wouldn't do any harm to eather of us, but we will learn a great deal about our defence line. those tests on drones don't tell real story. it's not the same as hitting a real missile coming your way.

OH then why does america test its mini nukes . every time there is development going on. you need to test to certify new designs and if you dont get it , they might be useless

12-20-2006, 01:06 AM	#1 (permalink)
Endangered is a *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 08-13-05 Location: Bangalore, India Posts: 1,748	India Says It Will Keep Nuclear Test Option Open New Delhi (AFP) Dec 19, 2006 India said on Tuesday it will keep open the option to conduct more nuclear weapons tests despite a deal with the United States to access long-denied Western civilian nuclear technology. "We will keep our options open to conduct nuclear tests and the decision will be left to the wisdom of the decision-making authority at that point of time," Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee announced in parliament. "We will not like to foreclose the option," he said during a debate on the deal. US President George W. Bush signed the controversial pact into law Monday and hailed it as a sign of warm ties between the world's two largest democracies. The agreement will pave the way for US sales of nuclear fuel and know-how to India for the first time since New Delhi tested a nuclear device in 1974, becoming an international atomic pariah. Mukherjee's comments came after opposition leaders warned the deal could stump the nuclear programme in India. In 1998 India exploded nuclear weapons and then imposed a unilateral moratorium on further testing. Some Western critics warn that exempting India from the US ban on nuclear exports to non-signatories of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) may hurt US efforts to confront North Korea and Iran over their atomic ambitions. Mukherjee attacked the NPT and said India, which declared itself a fully-fledged nuclear weapons state after 1998, would not sign the accord. "We consider it a fraud treaty which is creating a class where the nuclear weapons states will have the right of stockpiling, experiments. We refuse to accept this discriminatory treatment," he told parliament's upper house. Allaying fears voiced by opposition leaders as well as a section of India's scientific community, Mukherjee also said the government would not accept any pre-conditions in the treaty that would cap India's strategic programme. "This is a civil nuclear agreement and not an arms control measure," Mukherjee said. "We are not accepting any additional commitment and we are just sticking to the voluntary moratorium which we have declared. Also, we are not going to accept any treaty-bound commitment," Mukherjee said. The foreign minister said India and the US would now embark on "hard negotiations" before the start of supply of American nuclear technology to India. "In my mind the real negotiation will start now because we will have to enter into an 123 Agreement with the US," he said. The pact will be the sole binding document defining the terms of the anticipated nuclear commerce arising from the deal, which the US Chamber of Commerce says could open up 100 billion dollars in opportunities for American businesses. The bilateral agreement will have to be approved again by the US Congress, controlled next year by Democrats, who are known for their strong non-proliferation views. Link __________________ Wild Wild Web

12-20-2006, 18:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
gamercube Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-20-06 Location: Barbados Posts: 771 Country:	re First of all, isn't that in the non-binding section of he agreement? Even if it isn't, I think the key point here is that all nuclear co-operation with the US will be terminated if we do any of those things. This is assuming that we import any reactors or fuel from the US in the first place. From what I've read, senior government officials are saying that this deal is only a way for India to get into the nuclear non-proliferation mainstream. After this deal is concluded, there is no obligation on us to buy reactors or fuel from the US. We can conclude separate agreements with Russia, France, the UK etc to satisfy our fuel requirements. If we do not have any equipment of american origin, then we do not have to worry about any of the clauses in this deal. For example, we can use Russian fuel for all our reactors, and then test a nuclear weapon, and the US won't be able to do ****. This deal is only a door for India to buy nuclear fuel legitimately from our friends.

12-20-2006, 18:58 PM	#11 (permalink)
gamercube Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-20-06 Location: Barbados Posts: 771 Country:	re India does not have megaton nukes like the other nuclear powers do. The thermonuclear weapon design of the Indian scientists was only supposed to have a maximum yield of 200 kilotons, whereas the USSR had tested a 50 megaton nuclear device. Besides, India does not have MIRVs. Also, any nuclear power would need to constantly develop new designs according to their needs at a particular time. The US has developed computer simulation software to be used on supercomputers to design new types of nukes. India has only partially mastered that technology.

12-20-2006, 19:48 PM	#13 (permalink)
gamercube Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-20-06 Location: Barbados Posts: 771 Country:	re That is.......unbelievable. I was under the impression that all that stuff was in the non-binding section. While researching on the subject, I found this excellent article by Mr. Arun Shourie: http://indianexpress.com/sunday/story/11160.html I really think now that this is a bad deal for us, at least until the US changes the relevant sections in the legislation. I fail to understand how the Congress government "welcomed" the passage of the deal. I understand that MM Singh is concerned about the energy crunch faced by India, and that lack of energy supplies may put restrictions on India's economy, but someone needs to tell him that national security is far above any considerations of economic growth! I can only hope now that this deal falls through, or that the Left withdraws its support to the government over this issue.

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12-20-2006, 08:55 AM	#2 (permalink)
y_raj Regular Join Date: 11-06-06 Location: India Posts: 119 Country:	I have heard that the treaty banned tests but had escape doors too. BTW democrats have been good to India. they would certainly back the plan.

12-20-2006, 10:46 AM	#5 (permalink)
joey2 Guest Posts: n/a	lol yes Before signing the deal infront of media and everyone Bush pledged that 104 section etc etc are not on indias foreign policy etc etc. you should have seen the eye brows of the guys standing in their back when he was saying that.

12-20-2006, 18:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
omon Field mechanik *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-01-06 Location: bk Posts: 2,058 Country:	Why would they need to test nukes, don't they know how they work by now? do you need a nuke warhead to see how far the missle flyes? i'd love to see real missle tests by russia and us. we both should fire a dummy missile toward each other(aim it in the desert) and see whose anti missle shield realy work. that wouldn't do any harm to eather of us, but we will learn a great deal about our defence line. those tests on drones don't tell real story. it's not the same as hitting a real missile coming your way.

12-20-2006, 20:22 PM	#14 (permalink)
gamercube Banished *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 11-20-06 Location: Barbados Posts: 771 Country:	Interestingly, it seems that Manmohan Singh was at the forefront of denouncing the Pokhran II tests in Parliament. Sounds all the more ominous for our national security.

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