Ray

You talk of your great canals etc.

Where is Ichogil Canal? In Japan?

Check the map.

The problem with you civilians and even draftees in some countries who have not seen actual combat is that your patriot fervour translates in making your military into a Superman of the comic books; or makes you soil your trousers with imagined fear of an advancing army.

All militaries around the world can do that much and no more. Yet, they are no quitters.

You speak about Urban Warfare. You don't have to know a damn about military strategy or tactics to realise the true worth about Urban Warfare and its hassles. You don't even have to be a timepasser in Digital classes or a rocket scientist. All you require is to follow the news and read it, if you educated and with the intelligence to analyse.

If Urban Warfare was a cakewalk as your fevered patirotic as also your fear charged imagination suggests that the Indian Army had Lahore as an objective (it is a different matter that the Pak Army fled and the Indians could only occupy the outskirts giving the wrong impression that Lahore could be captured to the fear charged inhabitants), then Iraq would have been under the total control of the MOST POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD AND WHOSE TECHNOLOGY AND WEAPONS NO COUNTRY CAN EVEN DREAM OF MATCHING and all vermins exterminated. Note: if the Rambo series is your military education, then you have a second guess coming.

Would Fellujah, Najaf, Kirkut, Al Sadr city in Baghdad etc not be a totally captured or sanitised zone? Are you under the impression that the US has gone into Iraq to play marbles?

That is why it is such a laugh to hear about the 'weaknesses' of the US in still not being able to control Iraq; at least militarily!

I speak not on the issue, but as a military man and I would defend even the Paksitani military if need be, as you did by not understanding the situation about the chopper and innocence posted your ignorance indicating a failure of the PAF.

It is time you guys get off the militarys' back especially when you are ignorant.

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Ray

Asim,

Great that you saw the Canal and you thought it is not possible to cross.

What is impossible for you, the Army could.

And yet you guys always criticise the military.

Asim Aquil

ya how can a civvie like me figure out that the Indian Army has hover tanks.

They did cross it, from the larger openings, but retreated later, and then doing it again under fire is not an easy task.

Ray

Asim,

If you have no idea military history, it is not my fault.

There were large gaps? Why was that supposed to be held by the Indians against Indians? I don't know your concept of fighting a war.

Since you claim to be from Lahore, is Lahore connected by land to India? Is there not a raging river between them? Are there not a whole lot of canals and channels? So, how do you cross even if your misplaced fear of India suggest India has hover tanks! If we do have, surely the Israelis have helped. Sadly they also don't have. We are the first (thanks to your suggestion).

So the troops in Lahore on the outskirts were not there? Obviously, they had to cross the water to reach.

If there were no Indian troops on the outskirts of Lahore, then why this indignation with fear charged mind?

Just to use your style of argument, though here it is clear your have got yourself totally confused and contradicting yourself.

I thought this is about RAW, What this about the 1965 War and Vajpayee with his dhoti?

Vaman

Since military history was brought up, I thought these two accounts of Assal Uttar are interesting:

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/a...ks/patton.html

http://orbat.com/site/history/histor...ssaluttar.html

Apparently both seem to suggest that the pak pattons came out of the war with its image utterly tarnished

Aryan

Great, now get them to talk...

Ray

Are they Indian forums?

Ray

The pot calling the kettle black?

What does the thread start with? Three RAW agents. Some nondescript blokes are hauled up. Who are they? RAW!
Tit for Tat. Isn;t that the name of the game?

Of course the RAW is taking less of the blame for the ills of Pakistan. After all, it is most lucrative to blame the Al Qaeda these days since the the more alarmist one becomes about Al Qaeda, the more money and lethal toys flow to Pakistan from good old Uncle Sam.

Of course Lt Gen Hamid Gul, while blaming the RAW for Balochistan and elsewhere, doesn't feel the AQ is in Wana where Musharraf carried out the action.
Those are good old Pakistanis being sacrificed to please the US. Moslems against Moslem! Now, he was the ISI (and you like him too as [er your post). Silly chap blaming Musharraf and then tongue in cheek saying that he hope that Musharraf does not meet the fate of Zia (which he blames on teh US) (Saw my post on his interview?)

Obviously, Dawood Ibrahim who blew the bombs and rocked Mumabi is not in Pakistan. CIA is also wrong I presume. Nasty chaps, these Americans, what ho?

In so far as India wanting to go to Lahore during the Kargil show, please post some link. It is a well known fact publicly reported in the international Press that India did not allow their forces to cross the Line of Control since they did not want to escalate the war! If they were not to cross the Line of Control, I reckon Lahore is across the International border as drawn by the Radcliff Award during Parition. Get logical.

I know youa re a Mohajir and you wnat to be back to your roots and want Lahore to be a part of India, but hey, there is some international niceites one must maintain and so sorry, you desire cannot be fulfilled.

Can't break that for one man's desire!

Asim Aquil

Anyway...

Ray, I don't care if I'm from Lalu Khait, I'd still back my nation. I am half Kashmiri, we progressive people do not associate race with just our Father's side of the family. Plus I'm born in Lahore, and have got mostly Lahori traits.

Dude, I really do not like make "US and Pak are alike" type statements just to suck up for the nation, to fake a good image. We have our differences, and I like to admit that upfront. We'd like to correct them, but thats only going to happen when its admitted. You almost seem like you're willing to defend AQ in order to protect RAW. haha.

Anyway, its upto you. All intelligence agencies have links with terrorism, links with assasins, computer hackers, and so on. It'd be a smart thing to do. I'm just kinda intrigued why are these agents being activated in Lahore? So much buzz around Lahore.

I'll see about posting a link. We ARE talking about 1999, and I think I read it in some paper.

Ray

No,

Talking about Doomsday. Harb ul Islam to be precise!

ajaybhutani

Well i'll ask u a simple question wasnt india cheated upon.. on one side pakistanis were talknig all about peace .Our PM came all the way on bus to Lahore to strnegthen the relations .And on the other side pakistan was planning a futile attempt to capture parts of kashmir .U guys just put a knife in our back after showing a hand of friendship............
And regarding who won which war.I think it really dsnt matter since the next one is 99.99% sure to be 1000 times more disasterous than any of the previous ones.
and indians never wanted a war.But they know they will not loose one.THats for sure. While pak knows that they might have to resort to their last means of nuclear defence... in case theres a war.Frankly thats the only defence pak has.


Whatsoever have been the outcomes of the wars fought by indians they fight it like humans.Pak is the army who didnt even claim the bodies of their dead soldiers during kargil.???...a country dsnt respect its soldiers.... what would be the value of the normal people in the eyes of the authorities.

lemontree

Some info for all the Pakistanis who think that we are obsessed with Lahore.

1. In 1965 we went for Lahore and Sialkot to ease the pressuer of the sudden attack in Chhamb ,Op Grand Slam (1st Sept '65), that we slammed shut with these two pronged attacks(7/8 Sept '65). There was no intention to capture Lahore, only to threaten it. It did the job, of pulling out elements of Pakistans 1 Armd Div and eased pressure from Chhamb sector.

2. Do you guys (Pakistanis) know about Pakistanis army's Op Gibralter(Aug '65) and how it failed. That war was started by you guys. It is ironic that your present generation has been fed hashed up history that India made a surprise attack.

Asim Aquil

Yes.

I'll ask you another, what should one do about it?

Samudra

Why stop there Asim ? Dont you think Ajay is just stating something totally irrelevant to India and Pakistan ?

ISI , has massacred thousands of Indians in the name of Operation Topac, Diplomatic support, and islamic studies.Hey , why should you care ?

Fire back the question , "Yea..so what you wanna me to do ?"
After all 500 Indian soldiers were killed for a pakistani generals strategic "blunder" ... yawn who cares if 5 billion Indians die ? Kashmir is supposed to be free !

Do us Kaffirs have a right to live my lord ? And pakistanis have a right to kill us all and say "so what should one do about it ?" ?

Please sir, such posts of your are a revelation to us about who you are and what you pretend to be .

Asim Aquil

I believe, I've asked a question, What should one do about it? Kargil happened. Now what? India's tried attacking back, that didn't work either (2002). So like now should the Pakistanis attack again? Then India, Then PAkistan.

Again, What should one do about Kargil? Appologise? Here you go, Sorry! Didn't satisfy you, now did it?

I'll tell you what we can do instead, move past it, and try and prevent such incidents by removing the cause of strife between the two nations.