Tronic

And what would they get out of "appease mulsims in India" stance? I mean, surely if it is for votes, then like the BJP, they would rather be trying to appease the Hindu majority instead of a minority, no?

Yes, India had socio-economic policies, and the USSR was looked up in aww by most early Indian leaders, even Bose was pro-Socialist! That is one reason of India's slow development, but those days are over, privatization is happening at a fast pace, and the economy is doing good!

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Nabha Sparasham Deeptam
-Touch The Sky With Glory

digvijay

No. Hindus after Independence were already in the congress bag. It was the muslims that Nehru wanted to bag and he succeeded for a while.

Also Mahatama Gandhi wanted to dissolve congress after independence. He thought Congress had served its purpose and new political parties should emerge to lead the independent nation forward but Nehru did not agree because he realised his chance of winning elections were highest if kept congress alive.
Yes economy has caught up in some sectors with rest of the world and will catch in others soon. But this is thanks to the vision of our ex Finance Minister ManMohan Singh who opened up Indian markets in early 90's.

But the other side of the communist/socialist proaganda i.e the censorship of our history to soothe muslims is a major problem. I have seen muslim leaders on TV saying muslims did not break any temples in India.

-Digvijay

Tronic

Well, thats politics for you...

I think Nehru was even the one who was sharply against Jinnah becoming first PM of India, which I think Gandhi had proposed doing to prevent the partition...

Well, to each his own, but yeah, I don't know about censorship though, I mean we already know that the Mughals commited atrocities..... but I don't see why they have to be specifically painted as Muslim atrocities, since it were technically the Mughals... painting them as Muslim atrocities against India; and you have just alienated around 200 million Indians....

and talking about censorship, did you check out what the Gujarat government is doing against 'Parzania'?... now that is censorship upfront...

btw, this is the same thing they did to Fanaa... the Gujarat government makes some comments about these two movies, and woala, next thing you know, they are not screening in Gujarat...

digvijay

Politics should not warrant distortiion of nation's history and muddying it up because Muslims will get offended. Frankly some of the architects of post independence economy in India, like J.R.D Tata would not have been there and would have perished under muslim sword in Persia had there ancestors not run away from Iran to India in 8th century A.D. Please read this:
Saving Hinduism


Yes this is right. I just wish Gandhi had put his foot down and acepted Jinnah as the PM. Jinnah was dying of tuberculosis (chain smoker) and his Hindu Gujarati doctor knew it well but did not disclose it to anyone.

Partiotion of India was the biggest folly committed by nehru. Quite a few army men like General Nathu Singh were very upset with Nehru because of the partition. I firmly believe that if a kshatriya was at the helm there would have been no partition of the country.

Not really. Our most eminent historians do not think any atrocities happened or temples got broken. In similar vein muslim youth of today are told Islamic age was the golden age of India and Muslim rulers were most benevolent.

Yes it is quite sad what happened in Gujarat. But what is more sad and there is no movie being made on it by anyone nor will ever be made one becuase if Hindus are tortured it is ok becuase they belong to the tolerant religion, is the pogrom and ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits at the hands of Islamic terrorists.

Fanaa was because of Aamir's comments against Modi.
-Digvijay

Archer

Marxism and socialism see everything as class struggle and in the view of the Marxists, they loathe Hinduism with a passion on account of the caste system and a belief in "superstition", namely polytheism. You will not find a single book by any Marxist that does not mention the two above, in one way or the other.

Take a look at the doyens of Indian history, those who have been festooned with awards by the GOI- all marxists. Romila Thapar- the voice of Govt sanctioned authority on ancient India, Irfan Habib, the list goes on and on..

Books by RC Majumdar & co, anything remotely critical of the Islamic rule in India, were promptly declared as communal and declared as sacrilege. Romila Thapar in fact, famously even excused Aurangzeb by saying there was little proof that he was a bigot who hated polytheists, and he was just like other rulers- a bit too harsh perhaps. Shivaji was reduced to a minor chieftain and brigand, the Sikh gurus to feuding local chieftains etc etc. Meanwhile, the heights of Indian success were represented by Akbar. But what occurred prior to the Mughals- never mind that.

When the Congress took power, many Marxists followed along and became entrenched. Nehru & co didnt mind- they too were Fabian socialists. In fact, the history of the INC shows many radical leftists and light socialists. They were a product of their times, after all- it took a socialist to automatically rebel against a mercantilist setup, which the British Raj was! So, they saw no problem in letting their idealogical fellow travellers decide how to set and conduct history. As I mentioned in the other thread, most of the historical accounts kept by the British were firmly orientalist with a healthy streak of religious bigotry- eg: "the hindoo is an indolent creature, his complexion is sallow and he does not exhibit robust tendencies, his life is confined by the narrow walls of the caste system. As that most excellent Bishop XXX says, we must show them the correct path.." yada yada yada. I am just reading The Fall of the Mughal Empire by Keene and it is full of such stuff. Now these primary sources were then promptly used along with marxist dialectic and idealogy to come up with the next gen. of history, the kind that became establishment knowledge and has been quoted endlessly and recycled.
Now, all record of the strife between Hindus and Muslims were removed- "to preserve national unity", everything became class struggle- in which the caste system (as defined by the primary sources) placed the local system in a firm disadvantage and made it firmly the opponent. I can quote from several books if you wish, but thats about it. The whitewashing of Islams historical record was deemed necessary because it was so bloody- frankly,which is where they made a mistake. The entire body of knowledge has been suppressed, which allows Islamists to now cast Islamic rule in India as just and benevolent and a form of manifest destiny! Ho boy, talk of the cycle repeating.

The deification of the Indian National Congress (even despite the respect they undoubtedly deserve), is at times ridiculous, and verges on the bizarre. As a child, I had two identical text books- in English & Hindi- both of which were word to word translations of each other, on the INC. Talk about hagiography, and we were even graded on it. History as taught even in CBSE at the time, focused on what Garibaldi did (or didnt)- Indian history was a mish mash of dates and events, with little context and the obligatory paeans to selected "national leaders"- who pass the muster for secular correctness.

The problem is that Marxism firmly believes in the interplay of culture and economics, and tomes have been written about how it was the former that shackled India. So every Marxist worth his salt comes out with rage against local culture and repeats all the hoary chestnuts.

Pick up any book- about the "oppressed yada yada" - insert castes/ economically downtrodden/ this that- and you'll find 9 times out of 10, the author is a leftist. Most of the NGOs are headed by Leftists. In an irony of sorts, the most idealogical loonybin in India is the Jawaharlal Nehru University- JNU, which is again a doyen of Leftism. When the recent Hizb. and Israeli clash went on- out came the chain emails- with multiple famous names from JNU, and descriptions (hilarious!)- student/activist, actor/activist, social personality (huh?!), I still have a few left..

And the IFS, IAS etc are all filled up with JNU grads- you can well imagine the state of things. Sad state of affairs, but I still think communism in India will ultimately die out. The day that happens, if I am still alive, I will have a drink. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Manufactured idealogies never work, especially communism which has caused untold devastation in many countries across the world.

__________________
Karmani Vyapurutham Dhanuhu

My bow is stretched for its task

Archer

Why should they be alienated provided a distinction is made between todays Indian muslims and the actions of the sultanates? Tronic, this is the entire problem here- by avoiding talking of the elephant in the room, you are just letting the elephant live in denial about its effects on the room in turn.

Should the Indian Govt stop talking of the cons of the caste system as it has come to be implemented, because it may offend Hindus?
The Mughals, the Sultanates, many Islamic chieftains- did do what they did out of a firm belief in Islamic scripture. It deserves being remarked on how bigoted and wrong they were. They committed genocide on a massive scale, throughout entire tracts of India, but all that is whitewashed! Then how will an educated Muslim look at that record and say- "that was truly abominable, and I will ensure that I dont listen to all that propoganda by the neihbourhood Islamist, because it led to this"..instead, by ensuring that only a rosy account of medieval Islamic practises in India remains, you leave the field to alternative accounts. Any Muslim will then have to have this POV forced upon him by non state actors, which leads him to believe the latter have a vested agenda and are communal and creates a victim complex. History is often meant to provide a cautionary tale, and downplaying all the negatives and self censorship (to avoid offending somebody), never works.

Jay

Varna BS. Kshatriya or no kshatriya, it was the utopian ideals and personal greed that lead to the partition.
I dont know which history books get used in your schools. I have been taught about the misdeeds of Aurangazeb, Malik Kuffar and his looting of the South, the torture of Khilji's.
Thats true, torture of hindus would never get in the news papers, may be thats coz we are the majority and no one's interested in hearing it out.

__________________
A grain of wheat eclipsed the sun of Adam !!

Archer

Yup, see the present day kshatriya Arjun Singh, never seen a more divisive, manipulative chap in politics. Besides, partition was inevitable, political Islamism cannot live in a democracy without strife.

Which state did you get your education from? I can vouch for two-three Northern states and CBSE texts which are suitably politically vetted, in the late 80's-mid 90's timeframe.

Its also editorial policy for the ToI, the Hindu and several other papers. "Members of one community" attacked "members of another".

digvijay

Nope. Kshatriyas usually do not yield there land without a big fight. True even today in India. You need to research how many people left congress at the time of partition. I know some of them personally and they left because congress sold the country and handed pakistan to muslims on a platter. And note congress was just dominated by Nehru and Gandhi. BTW people who left congress quite a few of them were rajputs.

I might also add, in case you have not already read:

Maharana Pratap

and many others like Shivaji spent all there life fighting to defend there land.

Please read this completely before arguing further:
India Discussion Forum - Indian History, Culture, Politics, News, Strategic Security, Hinduism. -> Indian Perception Of History

Are you serious or joking?

-Digvijay

digvijay

I agree Arjun Singh is the worst divisive politician in modern history at par with VP Singh (who also is rajput incidentally).

Partition was not inevitable. If Nehru/Gandhi had just refused partition there would not have been one. Independence may have been delayed, perhaps there would have been more riots but there would have been no partition. This is the biggest folly in the history of modern India committed by these two men.


-Digvijay

Tronic

Yaar, everyone does it... You will be surprised to see the propaganda RSS publishes in Punjab... they publish books giving Hindu names to all Sikh warriors; publish in their books that Guru Nanak was a Hindu and was a constant visitor to Mandir to pray to the Devi... basically trying to swallow Sikhism and turning it into just another Hindu sect rather then a religion... Playing with religion is doen by everyone!!! and I don't see why we should be poking at each others religions especially when our subcontinent has already seen so much blood flow simply because of religion!!!


Yeh, tragic mistakes, and unfortunately that wasn't his last one... his indo-chin bhai bhai got us screwed over by the Chinese in '62.... and also, we lost the UN seat due to him...

lol... I believe that if a Jutt was in power, Pakistan would be overrun again, and again, and again... and eventually fall under a Ranjit Singh type kingdom again...

lol...... ok, now seriously, if this country has to work, leave Caste and Religion out!!!!!!!!!!!!!! whitewash them both...


Point is, we still learn about them in school... dude, I'm 19, just finishing off my secondary education... and there is NO commie conspiracy/ history whitewash, or whatever going on... we have learnt about all the atrocities commited by the Mughals and we have also learnt about the liberal kings... you say Akbar killed 30,000 Hindus; yes, thats atrocity but thats the reality of those days dude... Banda Bahadur's army went to Samana, the place of the executioners of Guru Teg Bahadur, and later Guru Gobind's sons, and burned down the entire town in anger... later he went to Damla and slaughtered all the Pathans there who had deserted Guru Gobind during the battle of Bhangani... and later when the Sadhaura Chief persecuted Budhu Shah for helping Guru Gobind, in response Banda Bahadur got revenge by destroying the entire town and massacring all its leaders... thats how business was conducted in those days, and several Muslims were fighting on our side against the Mughals also!!!

And again, the main problem of that is because religion has put the poorer class people in these societies where they have their seperate schools, seperate public stuff... thats messed up; you should not be concentrating on what they are taught there, but rather that all the Indians must be mixed within each other... these individuality only happens when society allows it to happen... I have seen poorer areas where the neighbourhood is actually divided!!! Muslims on that side... Hindus on this side.... now THAT is messed up... obviously when there will be social barriers created like that there will be problems... I knew this guy who had been taught Muslims are this, muslims are that... 3 weeks of staying within our circle, his entire viewpoints changed... the fact is, which i'm not denying that yes, there defenitely are those Muslims which see Hindus and other non-Muslims almost as an alien entity; but then there are also those Hindus and non-Muslims who see Muslims as an alien entity... all I can say is that unless these people are lifted out of their misery and rise into a decent middle class, and actually start co-existing for a change, things will change...

And everyone already sympathisez with them... this is what is frustrating bro... sometimes you must suck up your pain and acknowledge someone elses pain to make sure it does not happen again... over 2000 Sikhs dies in the Delhi riots bro while the Police watched on... and when Ex-Indian army Sikh officers were necklaced with burning tires around their necks by Hindu mobs... It was a painful lesson and it was hoped that such events would never happen again... but Gujarat 2002 proved wrong again... fact is, all these extremists are dividing India; I mean even supposing that it had been Pakistan that had ordered those trains to be put on fire... so because of that, 2000 innocent Muslims were slaughtered as payback??? Yaar... this is India, and all these religious extremists are turning it into African style Tribal warfare on a large scale.... its sad really...


Whatever happened to freedom of speech? We live in a democracy, remember? Modi is a civil servant, he should act like one...

Tronic

Archie, will reply to your posts later, running late...

Ray

Communists morph into 'pseudo' secularists (not the BJP term), feminists and pinkos, and myriad front groups (identifiable by the words "international" and "peace") to divide and subvert society.

And when in power, they go gung ho abandoning their so called 'righteous' ways! See Bengal for instance.

A Trojan Horse!

As far as religion being left out is concerned, it would have been ideal. See post # 28

Democratic Peace and the Middle East

Caste is irrelevant today even though kept alive by the corrupt politicians for their votes to stay in power!

In fact, the use of caste at the election time and then is one of the biggest curse that has kept this nation moribund. To believe that there can be such high percentage of reservation for the so called 'downtrodden' be it for caste or religion is an insult to injury!

And then delude about India on the march!

The Indian Army is the only place where we don't care about caste or religion since both are inhibitors to achieve the national aim! Merit is the sole criteria!

__________________


"Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

HAKUNA MATATA

Archer

Tronic, see there the RSS or whatever is practising syncretism- there are undoubtedly close ties between Hindus and Sikhs - most of the initial Sikhs after all were Hindus who chose to follow the gurus. Even today many Sikhs visit mandirs and see the devis, take blessings etc. Eg Durga worship is commonplace amongst many Sikhs. But even so, I have not come across any Hindu text which insists on conversion- whilst reiterating Sikh-Hindu theological ties may be irritating to purists (and that is a valid claim to some degree), it does not fall into the category of what a Zakir Naik does. For instance, he claims that Hindus et al must renounce their religion and move forward to Islam, and then he cites Islams noble rule as a reason. See the difference?



Nehru was a misguided idealist, and idealism causes more problems than most other -isms!



True. I think fifty years of independence have made several of the original caste-religious stereotypes disappear in educated, urban households, though in rural areas, the stereotypes remain.

I dont know about Punjabs state board to comment. However, as I mentioned earlier, there were several NCERT texts (which I used in school) and state board texts, which were very very politically correct, and dripped marxist dialectic. In fact, two years back, I was rummaging through my old texts and read the 8th standard history text, it reads like the bloody communist manifesto in parts. Dripping references to "class warfare", multiple questions on "why was this bad for India"- in other words, here is the conclusion, now you sit and justify it...pretty strong stuff.




This is correct to some degree, but unfortunately its not that straightforward. The simple fact is that Hinduism being a disorganized religion (without a central authority)- has adults- later on, get into religious scripture for the most part. There is little emphasis on literalism. So the extremism comes from separate organizations, which the average Hindu can avoid by not joining up. The Sikh community is more organized, but again there has been a problem in some areas with the gurudwara becoming a center of political and spiritual power- which the khalistanis tried to exploit and have successfully done so in the US and UK. Unfortunately, the way Islam is structured, the emphasis on literalism and on the mosque and madrasa being pivotal to their social structure, the extremism is reinforced at that very level itself. Eg, take the recent expose on mosques in the UK- I found it to be very tame stuff. In Hyderabad and Bangalore for instance and in several cities in the North, its a given that the Friday prayers are a call to war. Rioting occurs directly thereafter once the muezzin has given his clarion call. Then there are the madrasas- irrespective of how educated and well to do one is, its very hard to escape societal obligations and not sendyour kid to the madrasa- where, frankly, a lot of stuff that goes on, is pure brainwashing.



Correct, but then the issue comes of cause & effect. Unless you have