Thread: Hey Sniper!!!

From what I've heard, bullpup guns normally have more muzzle rise than others. I would presume that firing one from prone wouldn't be all that different than with a standard rifle since the clip isn't any lower; a rifle version of the P90 (like the gun in my post: Gun Designs) would be very controllable as the barrel is lower on the gun, more accurate, and has a much higher capacity.

Wrong Sniper, I meant M21Sniper.

I imagine I've a little bit more shooting experiece than you. By that I mean competition shooting etc. I'm a bit older than you are you see. Not trying to be offensive mate.

Originally Posted by Batman

Wrong Sniper, I meant M21Sniper.

You should have specified that you wanted the real sniper

I know, my bad.

I'm left handed, so i find bullpups pretty much entirely useless.

But yes, i agree with your above assesments wrt the problems with shooting bullpups from prone.

When laying prone the preferred method is to rest the front of the fore-arm on a small sandbag(or bi-pod), rest the toe of the stock on a small sandbag, primary hand on the pistolgrip, and off-hand on the bottom rear of the stock applying slight rearward pressure. To change elevation i simply use my off-hand to move the sandbag fwd/aft in relation to the tapered toe of the stock.

This provides for a dead steady rest with easy windage/elevation adjustment.

Lacking sandbags the off-hand supports(but does not apply pressure to, or grasp) the forward fore-arm, the 30rd magazine serves as a rest, and the primary hand grips the pistol grip while applying a steady rearward pressure.

With either method, offset your body 45 degrees to the weak side of the weapon.

Here's a pic of me on the 600 meter line with an M-16A1/M203(im the guy on the end) demonstrating the latter method, circa 1988(the guy next to me is all effed up, and is demonstrating a good example of how NOT to do it), Note how low i have the weapon so that i can use the magazine as a rest:



Now let's see which of you pays the most attention to detail.

Originally Posted by Batman

Wrong Sniper, I meant M21Sniper.

I imagine I've a little bit more shooting experiece than you. By that I mean competition shooting etc. I'm a bit older than you are you see. Not trying to be offensive mate.

No offense taken.
Just giving my part to this conversation.

Originally Posted by M21SNIPER

Lacking sandbags the off-hand supports(but does not apply pressure to, or grasp) the forward fore-arm, the 30rd magazine serves as a rest, and the primary hand grips the pistol grip while applying a steady rearward pressure.

With either method, offset your body 45 degrees to the weak side of the weapon.

Here's a pic of me on the 600 meter line with an M-16A1/M203(im the guy on the end) demonstrating the latter method, circa 1988(the guy next to me is all effed up, and is demonstrating a good example of how NOT to do it), Note how low i have the weapon so that i can use the magazine as a rest:

No wonder you Army guys can't hit anything past 300 yards. Bad unstable positions.

You need a 3 points of stability position with body behind the rifle and along the path of recoil. Thus reducing rifle movement out of the path of fire. Producing quicker reengagement time.

Rifle should never rest on the magazine. You adjust the elevation of the rifle by sliding the forward hand up or down the grips.

Distribute the weight evenly between elbows providing max support and stability.
A human bipod, If you will.

Resting the rifle on the magazine can cause the weapon not to be balanced and recoil forces to move the muzzle in a direction other than along the rearward extension of the line of fire.

This technique provides for two of the three elements of a good firing position.
Bone support, muscular relaxation. All you need to do is attain natural PoA.

Thats how its taught in the Corps, by the NRA and olympic shooting rules. A magazine resting on the deck will get you kicked off the line and loose all your points.



Those tgts seem awful big to be 600 meters away. What were you shooting at

"No wonder you Army guys can't hit anything past 300 yards. Bad unstable positions."

LOL, this coming from a gun bunny after seeing a pic of three army troops shooting targets 600 meters away...

"The other guy has a good 3 point of stability position with body positioned along the path of recoil. Thus reducing rifle movement out of the path of fire. Producing quicker reengagement time."

His form sucks dick. BTW, M-16s don't recoil in any significant way in semi-auto fire, which is what we're trained to employ. You may notice that of the three soldiers pictured, only one is employing the 'splayed frog' technique you advocate. The other two are displaying correct form(myself being one of them).

The 'splayed frog' technique works way better with a bi-pod, and is usually employed by machine-gunners.

There is no difference in reacquisition time with either technique.

Go look at a little green prone plastic toy soldier sometime Gunny- you'll note that their bodies are offset 45 degrees to the muzzle.

"Rifle should never rest on the magazine."

LOL, if you insist.

"You adjust the elevation of the rifle by sliding the forward hand up or down the grips."

There are several effective methods, you described one of them.

If you're talking about adjusting elevation from a double sandbagged sniper rifle, well....you're completely wrong. Once it's rested on bags at both ends you slide the rear bag fwd or aft to accomplish elevation changes(or you can slide the weapon fwd/aft, but i always slid the bag so i didn't have to move my body). Why?

Because rifles resting at both ends on sandbags DON'T MOVE. Rifles supported by forearms/elbows- no matter how steady- DO.

And i might as well also mention that lifting a rifle off it's bi-pod to change elevation is, well....stupid(remember the back of the weapon is also rested). By simply sliding the bag(or weapon) fwd/aft it acts like a cam on the tapered stock effectively changing elevation.

"Distribute the weight evenly between elbows providing max support and stability.
A human bipod, If you will."

Lining up the muzzle with your body forces your elbows to be used as a rest(which are obviously pointy, ie unstable) unless you're really tall, whereas offsetting your body 45 degrees allows you to use your forearms as rests(which are not pointy, and are therefore much more stable).

Offsetting 45 degrees not only still provides a human bi-pod just as your 'technique' does, it also makes for a more stable bipod.

Resting on the magazine on top of it results in a TRIPOD, which is obviously even more stable.

"Resting the rifle on the magazine can cause the weapon not to be balanced and recoil forces to move the muzzle in a direction other than along the rearward extension of the line of fire."

With a M-14/21, sure, not in an M-16(and even with an M-14 on soft soil/dirt, etc. it's still perfectly acceptable. On rocks or concrete, yes, there are times where your observations are correct). The technique is tried and true my friend. Trust me. I qualified expert 4 different times doing it that way, twice with perfect scores(and never lower than a 38).
BTW, that was a technique shown to us by our Drill Sgt, who was a combat experienced former 75th Airborne Ranger by the name of SSG Hoehn.

"Thats how its taught in the Corps, by the NRA and olympic shooting rules. A magazine resting on the deck will get you kicked off the line and loose all your points."

Not in the Army.

Marines- quite simply- are stupid. Why the hell would we ever want to emulate dumbasses?

"Those tgts seem awful big to be 600 meters away. What were you shooting at"

Those targets are approx. 10 foot squares of white cardboard. The target is a 30" diameter black ring in the center of them with numbered scoring rings, which you can't even see in the picture due to the distance involved and the low resolution of the obsolete Kodak Disc camera the pic was taken with(That picture is already blown up about 300% and cropped vs the original size to boot).

BTW, i scored 19 hits out of 20 rounds fired from a 20+yo M-16A1 that day(almost no wind though)- and that was before i went to USASS.

I don't think i'll be needing any shooting lessons from any artillerymen any time soon. Sorry dude.

I personally have found that assault rifle magazines make terrible monopod-like rests. I usually just prop the rifle up with my left hand when shooting prone.

Yes, it would make for a terrible MONO-pod.

But that's not how i'm advocating it be used.

Read again...i am talking about using it as a third rest, which makes it a TRIpod.

Ah, that's more like it. My brother uses it as a monopod; I just shake my head when he can't hit anything doing that, and how he refuses to listen to me to change it.

Originally Posted by M21Sniper

Now let's see which of you pays the most attention to detail.

Aren't you holding the rifle on the right shoulder ? I'm left-handed too and use the right shoulder (and I suck), but I thought that most lefties use their left shoulder.

DING DING DING!!!!!

SAINT WINS THE DOOR PRIZE!!!!

The photo in question was 'flipped' when it was scanned by my sister from the original several years ago. In the actual picture, i am the last shooter on the RIGHT of the line, and yep- all three of us were lefties. The soldiers in the photo beside me are PV2 McKay and Pvt Bergman. Bergman is the idiot with the poor technique(which matched his general soldiering skills nicely, to be honest). If memory serves correctly Bergman scored exactly 1 hit in the 7 ring of 20 rounds fired that day....LOL.

Saint, for your mental mastery, you win...well, not much of anything.

Good attention to detail though!

I can't believe the Gunny didn't notice that- he must be getting old.

Gunny may remember that terrain feature in the background though. There aint many of them at Fort Sill, lol.