The BREN

**cottage cheese** · 21 May 06,, 15:57

Guys I was wondering if anyone could provide some insights into an odd Bren specimen I came across during a Batallion Range shoot. Obviously the armourers dont have a clue and for them a Bren is a Bren.
The single specimen I came across was a usual fare Bren except for the Bipod. Unlike the elaborate spring-loaded squeeze and swing type fold up, this one had an "A" shaped bracket with the legs pivoting on seperate pins (Very much like the M-60) - I haven't come across any other.
It looks too well made to be local/domestic cobble job.

Any Ideas?

**cottage cheese** · 21 May 06,, 16:02

Originally Posted by Monte

I agree with you CC Sir. The black Bulgarian stuff do look pretty, but quality wise... it's sometimes even inferior to the old 47s. Also, it's heavy, considering the materials used.

Yeah Monte - They're really bad. Scores have ended up with bulged barrels after a few months use....
I'd prefer the run-of-the-mill Soviet AKM over the Bulgarian turkey. Also call me a retrograde bible-thumping reactionary, but I love the look and feel of the Soviet plywood furniture against Parkerised metal.

**Monte** · 21 May 06,, 16:18

Nice meeting you too cottage cheese. I read somewhere that you are from NGL, if am not wrong. A big hello.

Originally Posted by cottage cheese

I do remember someone mentioning that the Mizoram Police use Vz61 Skorpions- what I don't know is if it was a deliberate purchase or a bunch of MNF hand-me-downs.

Yes, it is true. the Mizoram Armed Police (MAP) use the Skorpion Vz.61, mostly in the 7.65mm Browning (.32ACP). On January 13, 1997, when the CM of Mizoram Mr. Lalthanhawla came to CCPur during the Golden Jubilee of our Student Orgn (a whopping 9 years ago ..LoL), two of his personal guards were armed with it. Don't know if it was a deliberate purchase or a bunch of MNF hand-me-downs. BTW, my parents are from Mizoram, but I'm born & brought up in Manipur.

Regarding other things, here in Manipur, we got to lay a hand on the M16s that are of the oldest of the oldest (read Vietnam era). The G3s are available in newer variants though (being in service both in Burma & Pakistan). As for RPG-7, the last time I saw was a convoy of the Bishenpur district RAPF/Police Commando carrying a couple of it.

Originally Posted by cottage cheese

Man I'd love to give those Vickers a go at the range.

Me too. But for many years now, they are no longer used in the MTPS firing range during the Annual Firings. Reason given: .303 is not the standard ammo anymore & is short of supply.

I dunno how a state like Manipur will be able to phase out the .303 and arm all its forces (civil + 13 Bns. of MR which includes 6bns. of IRB). NGL is much well off economically & states like Mz & MLaya have less than 7 Bns. Well, if I got a chance to attend the IDay this year, I'll send a pic. as it is always a part of the parade (gee.. it's considered to have a symbolical value, thus it's not phased out till now)

**troung** · 22 May 06,, 04:13

Yes they do. Some SF units have a higher number authorised of 84mms.

Don't want you to break opsec but what is the authorised number of 84mms in a typical IA platoon? I would assume 2-3 as a guess.

From what I have been able to gleam the 84mm excels at terrorist bunker busting over there.

Its is standard issue at platoon level in RR/PM units.

So what are the numbers of the 2inch mortars and 84mm CGs at the platoon level?

Regarding other things, here in Manipur, we got to lay a hand on the M16s that are of the oldest of the oldest (read Vietnam era). The G3s are available in newer variants though (being in service both in Burma & Pakistan).

So would the M-16A1s and G-3s have been captured from guerillas/terrorists? Wondering if those M-16A1s would have then come off the Indochina black market.

The Army, oddly, doesn't have too many many Soviet/Russian AKs in its inventory. Most are 2nd hand East German MPiKM-72 and MPiKMS-72 and Romanian made versions of the same. Add a few thousand Vz58's and 58P's

Makes sense, Germany sold off their stocks MPiKMs after the cold war at bargain prices. Turkey bought thousands for use by COIN units. I had thought India picked up AKMs from Poland for operations in Sri Lanka.

===
Guys I am sorry to barrage with so many questions but this is a rich topic with so little information to be found over here. Thank you so much all of you guys.

**cottage cheese** · 22 May 06,, 05:30

Originally Posted by troung

So would the M-16A1s and G-3s have been captured from guerillas/terrorists? Wondering if those M-16A1s would have then come off the Indochina black market.

Yes to both questions. Most M16 are very old or at least well used. Not necessarily Vietnam relics as obviously there are lots floating around in the region without intervention of the Vietnam factor.
I've oberved a few M16A2s(Probably upgrades) and M4s but not enough to make a qualified comment on how and where. The most G3s are obviously Myanmaarese stock. Those states with a Bangladesh Border will find quite a few old(Pre1971) POF G3s around. There are a few in our armoury.
Incidentally, I was wondering of what make those Burmese G3s would be? Anyone?
I like the G3 man- it's a firstclass weapon.

Makes sense, Germany sold off their stocks MPiKMs after the cold war at bargain prices. Turkey bought thousands for use by COIN units. I had thought India picked up AKMs from Poland for operations in Sri Lanka

Funny thing is I'm yet to see any Polish hardware around. Polish AKs would have the number 11 in an oval. I've seen only markings of Soviet factories - Stylized Bullet or arrow in a triangle/oval and some other permutations. As I know, Polish AKMS variants are virtual clones of the Soviet ones except they dont have plywood furniture and the pistol grip is plastic. Also the Soviet AKMS doesn't have the angled muzzle compensator - Polish ones do. If anyone comes across one maybe you can let me know?
However, when it comes to the AKM the markings would be the best possible way to distinguish the two.

Guys I am sorry to barrage with so many questions but this is a rich topic with so little information to be found over here. Thank you so much all of you guys.

No probs- ask we'll be glad to.

**troung** · 22 May 06,, 05:48

Yes to both questions. Most M16 are very old or at least well used. Not necessarily Vietnam relics as obviously there are lots floating around in the region without intervention of the Vietnam factor.

Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos have been among the largest suppliers of black market M-16A1s. Guerillas in El Salvador it seems got M-16s before the government forces and those models reportedly where issued to the ARVN years before. But with a brain freeze I forgot that Thailand and Burma are right around the corner as well.

Incidentally, I was wondering of what make those Burmese G3s would be? Anyone?

You mean the model... G-3A3s and G-3A4s.

Funny thing is I'm yet to see any Polish hardware around.

I had just read that India had bought AKMs in Poland during the 1980s. I guess they could (probably where) have been from somewhere else.

**lemontree** · 22 May 06,, 05:57

Originally Posted by Monte

BTW, my parents are from Mizoram, but I'm born & brought up in Manipur.

Then if you understand lushai - khel lo me mo. (hope I did'nt screw up the 'Hi'

)

Nice to know you.
CC,
Forget the Belgian AKs, they suck. i still fondly remember the SLRs that we converted to auto. Excellent rate of fire, just that we could not use them on auto in normal condidtion and kept them only of an emergency or while springing an ambush.

**cottage cheese** · 22 May 06,, 06:08

Originally Posted by Monte

Nice meeting you too cottage cheese. I read somewhere that you are from NGL, if am not wrong. A big hello.
BTW, my parents are from Mizoram, but I'm born & brought up in Manipur.

Funny I'm from Nagaland but I grew up in Meghalaya

Yes, it is true. the Mizoram Armed Police (MAP) use the Skorpion Vz.61, mostly in the 7.65mm Browning (.32ACP). On January 13, 1997, when the CM of Mizoram Mr. Lalthanhawla came to CCPur during the Golden Jubilee of our Student Orgn (a whopping 9 years ago ..LoL), two of his personal guards were armed with it. Don't know if it was a deliberate purchase or a bunch of MNF hand-me-downs.

I heard they have a few MP5s as well.

The only Skorpion I checked out was at the local BSF Depot. It was hooked up with its leather holster, a 10 round and a 20 round magazine in the same rack with a Steyr Mannlicher SSG-69!
Man the SSG is one lovely weapon - good thing the BSF is using it.

Andhra Pradesh Police has Micro Uzi's for the CM's security.... I personally dislike weapons of that class and I feel a well used Pistol is more effective.

Me too. But for many years now, they are no longer used in the MTPS firing range during the Annual Firings. Reason given: .303 is not the standard ammo anymore & is short of supply.

I dunno how a state like Manipur will be able to phase out the .303 and arm all its forces (civil + 13 Bns. of MR which includes 6bns. of IRB). NGL is much well off economically & states like Mz & MLaya have less than 7 Bns. Well, if I got a chance to attend the IDay this year, I'll send a pic. as it is always a part of the parade (gee.. it's considered to have a symbolical value, thus it's not phased out till now)

Will be glad to take a peek at the pic.
Here its kind of amusing. We go to the range to fire SLRs and AKs, they bring in some 303's as well- Why? they say they want to finish off the 303 Ammo!! Thats pretty shortsighted as I see.

**lemontree** · 22 May 06,, 06:13

Originally Posted by troung

Don't want you to break opsec but what is the authorised number of 84mms in a typical IA platoon? I would assume 2-3 as a guess.

So what are the numbers of the 2inch mortars and 84mm CGs at the platoon level?

1 per platoon for both 2" mor and 84mm CG.

From what I have been able to gleam the 84mm excels at terrorist bunker busting over there.

Once a 84mm round is fired at them, they get petrified. I have seen the results myself during one encounter.

I had thought India picked up AKMs from Poland for operations in Sri Lanka.

The first units that switched to the AK were the SF paras, they went in for the Vz58. Most Polish Aks would have been ad-hoc purchases.

**leib10** · 22 May 06,, 06:19

Originally Posted by ChrisF202

Exactly how many cops are there in India that they dont all have a standard pistol or rifle? Is it because of the various different forces? If there is so many then why not just make a single national police force?

The NYPD has 29,000 officers and each has a Glock 17, some of the crusty old timers are still allowed to carry the .38 revolver (phased out in favor of the Glock 17 in 1992) but theres only a few hundred of them left on the active duty payroll mostly as higher rank detectives and in "the brass" ranks. As for long arms, its a mix of M4 carbines, Ruger Mini 14s (being phased out and replaced by the M4 carbine) and Remington 12 gague pump action shotguns.

Does SWAT still have MP5's?

**troung** · 22 May 06,, 06:25

Sir

What are your thoughts on the different infantry weapons in service? As in usefulness compared to weight and serving the COIN and regular warfare roles?

The first units that switched to the AK were the SF paras, they went in for the Vz58. Most Polish Aks would have been ad-hoc purchases.

It was mentioned as a stop gap to cover the operations of the paras in Sri Lanka.

1 per platoon for both 2" mor and 84mm CG.

UBGLs are being tested on the INSAS and for the AKs so that could mean if they became widespread the 2 inch mortar would leave service. Israel phased out their 2 inch mortars after getting the M-203 in widespread service.

**cottage cheese** · 22 May 06,, 06:44

Originally Posted by troung

You mean the model... G-3A3s and G-3A4s.

Actually I was more interested in knowing where they are made or who supplies them. The Germans... Pakistan...Turkey? or is it locally assembled?Most likely they are Pakistani.

I also remember reading about an 5.56mm AKM/Galil lookalike being made in small numbers in Burma with clandestine Singaporean and Chinese help. The whole 'factory' exceeding 400,000 tonnes seems to have been shipped to Myanmar from Singapore. I have some pics somewhere in my drive- i'll post them when I find them.
http://www.irrawaddy.org/database/19...burmaarms.html

I had just read that India had bought AKMs in Poland during the 1980s. I guess they could (probably where) have been from somewhere else.

You know- the Polish thing could be true nevertheless. Its just that most people don't bother to differentiate so an AK is an AK.

**troung** · 22 May 06,, 06:50

Burma has arms factories which made them with German help. POF has supplied ammunition of all sizes for the BA.

**cottage cheese** · 22 May 06,, 07:12

Originally Posted by lemontree

Then if you understand lushai - khel lo me mo. (hope I did'nt screw up the 'Hi'

)

Nice to know you.
CC,
Forget the Belgian AKs, they suck. i still fondly remember the SLRs that we converted to auto. Excellent rate of fire, just that we could not use them on auto in normal condidtion and kept them only of an emergency or while springing an ambush.

Bulgarian you mean...

yup...I did an auto modification on a couple of our our district SLRs -though the functioning is very violent and the weapon heats up real quick, I believe those on the receiving end would be pretty intimidated. Eventually the department kinda got intimidated themselves and shelved the whole idea.

**lemontree** · 22 May 06,, 07:42

Originally Posted by troung

Sir
What are your thoughts on the different infantry weapons in service? As in usefulness compared to weight and serving the COIN and regular warfare roles?

I would go for the INSAS, it is more accurate than the any AK. The AK proliferation is result of the misconception amongst the idiots who were very impressed with the firepower of the LTTE guerillas. I can fire more accurately with the 9mm carbine than the AK. But if one can improve the sights of the AK then it will gain my respect - but thats just my opinion.

UBGLs are being tested on the INSAS and for the AKs so that could mean if they became widespread the 2 inch mortar would leave service. Israel phased out their 2 inch mortars after getting the M-203 in widespread service.

The 2" mor is the platoon commanders arty weapon, with a max range of 500 mtrs. Today we use the 51mm mor with a max range of 750 mtrs.

While the UBGL grenade only replaces the barrel launched grenade of the No. 3 rifleman in a section. The barrel launched grenade had a max range of 150 mtrs, the UBGL just gives a section commander added range. The UBGL is the section commanders arty weapon.

The 51mm mor has many other uses like firing smoke and para-flares apart from HE bombs, which the UBGL does not duplicate. So the mor will remain in the IA infantry battalions.