The BREN

**sniperdude411** · 10 Aug 05,, 16:21

Any hBAR IMO doesn't compare to any LMG.

**cottage cheese** · 11 Aug 05,, 11:53

Originally Posted by lemontree

The task and role of the LMG and MMG differ. The problem with belt fed LMGs is that once you are bingo ammo, then the weapon is just a club. But a magazine fed LMG can use the rifle magazines till more ammo is fetched up.
This is solved by the Minimi. But then we will have to change the whole logistics and would defeat the INSAS concept. The INSAS LMG has been introduced keeping in mind the interchangability aspect.

Lemontree, I couldn't disagree with you on this. But yet again I fear we are treading the path the Brits have taken - The SA80 family. Aside from the bullpup thingy the concept is the same i.e. Rifle and "Machine Rifle". The LSW ended up being not too suited for its primary role- Support. So now they've picked up the Minimi. This is where I feel the INSAS LMG is headed (Of course, thats only my opinion though).
I'm seeing this from a section level match up with our Pakistani counterparts. Forget terrain, compitency, and the larger picture. In a purely academic sense, how do we match up at Infantry section level? They'd generally have G3's And MG3's or Type56's and RPD(type 59?) , We'll have either the SLR /Bren combo, or INSAS /INSAS LMG/BREN combo or AK/INSAS.... goodness the logistics!

Who can produce more firepower? I'd rather stick to the Bren than inflict the INSAS LMG on our troops. If its logistics then its Negev- I'm sure it'll be relatively easy to adapt it to handle INSAS mags. I know the ammo belts produce their on plethora of problems but in certain tactical scenarios 100+ round C-Mags as standard is a viable alternative- we then solve the problem of volume and belt hitches in one stroke.

It would be useful to study the reasons for the US requirement for a 'return' to 7.62X51 - Mk48, M240 etc. Perhaps we can then avoid a costly foray into "Machine Rifling".

What do you say?

**sniperdude411** · 11 Aug 05,, 20:41

What we need is a hard-hitting, sustainable fire MMG (m240), an LMG for suppression (not picking-off enemies; like the Minimi or Ultimax), and a medium, longer-range standard rifle (like the M16 A4 in 6.8 SPC).

**troung** · 20 May 06,, 05:15

Some Indian related small arms questions if no one minds...

Is the BREN a squad or platoon level weapon in the IA/RR-PM? As in is it integral to the squad or a platoon level support weapon?

Where is the MAG located normally in the battalion? Most of the images I have seen them in they have been on tripods for SF roles. I really have not seen an image of them in use with the butt for light roles in Indian service.

Where is the M-2/M-3 CG 84mm attached normally? Platoon, company or battalion?

The AGS-17 30mm? Snipers?

And how are the different units on COIN organized from the squad to the company level, size and what type of typical equipment?

====
Really seeing pictures of Indian operatiosn can show the viewed the 7.62mm NATO (FAL/BREN), 7.62mm M-43 (AKs), 7.62x54R (SVD), 5.56mm NATO (INSAS) and 9mm (Sterling) all in use side by side.

**cottage cheese** · 20 May 06,, 06:22

Originally Posted by troung

Some Indian related small arms questions if no one minds...

Is the BREN a squad or platoon level weapon in the IA/RR-PM? As in is it integral to the squad or a platoon level support weapon?

I'm not entirely sure about the Army (Lemontree and others can give a more authorative insight into this) but I can tell you about the Police. The state police forces are divided into district police and the Armed reserve police. The armed resrved police are trained, organized and run on almost military lines. they are arranged in 1000 man batallions for state police and 700-800 man batallions for the newer India Reserve Batallions. Likewise, the structure is similar to the army, half-section, section, platoon, company, batallion.The police forces are now in the process of replacing the .303s with SLR1A1s, and the .303 Brens with 7.62 Brens. the Stens and 9mm Carbines SMG1A remain. The distribution of weapons would also be the same as in the Army. A 'serious' deployment of police batallions would include the bren but mostly its riflemen and the carbine/AKM armed NCO.

Where is the MAG located normally in the battalion? Most of the images I have seen them in they have been on tripods for SF roles. I really have not seen an image of them in use with the butt for light roles in Indian service.

The MAG is mostly on static or vehicular mounting, but I've seen a few (rare) images/clips of the stock-bipod configuration in use. I don't know how widespread it's application is.(Lemontree?)

Really seeing pictures of Indian operatiosn can show the viewed the 7.62mm NATO (FAL/BREN), 7.62mm M-43 (AKs), 7.62x54R (SVD), 5.56mm NATO (INSAS) and 9mm (Sterling) all in use side by side.

The police has a more mind boggling logistic disaster waiting to happen:
.22LR - Basic training Brno Mod2
.380 Webley - For Ruger Service Six, Titan Tiger, Llama revolvers
.38SPL - For Smith&Wesson M39A12 bodyguard, Colt Cobra
.455 Webley - For Webley MkIV revolver(retired but issued ocassionally)
.45 ACP- For M1911(rare), Thompson M1, M3 Grease Gun
9mm - FN GP35, SAF Pistol1A, Glock17, Glock19, Carbine(Sterling) SMG1A, Sten Mk-II,III,IV, MP5A3.
410" - For Lee-Enfield/RFI 401 musket (retired but ocassionally issued)
.303" - Lee Enfield/RFI No-1MkIII, No4Mk1, Bren Mk1(?),2, (Manipur State police apparently has some Vintage Vickers MMGs in storage)
30-06 - M1 Garand (retired but ocassionally appears)
7.62mm(M80) - SLR1A, Bren (MG1B)
7.62mm(M43) - AKM, AKMS, Type56-1 and the new All-black Bulgarian AKs.
7.62(R) - Dragunov
5.56X45 - INSAS
2" Mortar - Smoke, Flare, HE
12GA - SAF Pump Action Shot gun
HE36 Hand Grenade
plus a whole bunch of non-lethal munitions
AAAARGH!!

**lemontree** · 20 May 06,, 06:24

Originally Posted by troung

Some Indian related small arms questions if no one minds...

Is the BREN a squad or platoon level weapon in the IA/RR-PM? As in is it integral to the squad or a platoon level support weapon?

The Bren is a section/ squad support weapon in the IA/RR & PM.

Where is the MAG located normally in the battalion? Most of the images I have seen them in they have been on tripods for SF roles. I really have not seen an image of them in use with the butt for light roles in Indian service.

The MAG is used as a Medium Machine Gun on tripod, and it is a company/ battalion support weapon, depending on the role being played by the unit (i.e defense or attack).

Where is the M-2/M-3 CG 84mm attached normally? Platoon, company or battalion?

The 84mm Carl Gustav is a platoon weapon. At battalion level one has the Anti-tank platoon ATGMs though the 106mm jeep mounted RCL still exist.

The AGS-17 30mm? Snipers?

Same as the MMG/ MAG. The AGL replace the .50 cal HMG platoon of the past

And how are the different units on COIN organized from the squad to the company level, size and what type of typical equipment?

The number of rifle companies is more in COIN battalions, the rest of the organisation is the same as a standard infantry battalion. The changes in the equipment like of reduction in ATGMs (since it is not required the 84 mm is sufficient), mor platoon etc,..what ever heavy weapons are not required to fight an insurgency are replaced/ removed.

Really seeing pictures of Indian operatiosn can show the viewed the 7.62mm NATO (FAL/BREN), 7.62mm M-43 (AKs), 7.62x54R (SVD), 5.56mm NATO (INSAS) and 9mm (Sterling) all in use side by side.

The Bren - still exists in units yet to convert to INSAS LMG and as sector stores in forward areas. We still use the .30 Browning as sector stores is some sectors. Being transfered to Armed Police Battalions and CRPF battalions.

The AK - a stop gap measure, but will be used as sector stores.

SVD - sniper rifles issued in standard inf battalion.

9mm Sterling - being used till replaced by INSAS carbine or another weapon. The carbine continues to have a place in the IA/RR/PM.

**lemontree** · 20 May 06,, 06:28

Where is the MAG located normally in the battalion? Most of the images I have seen them in they have been on tripods for SF roles. I really have not seen an image of them in use with the butt for light roles in Indian service.

The MAG is mostly on stac or vehicular mounting, but I've seen a few (rare) images/clips of the stock-bipod configuration in use. I don't know how widespread it's application is.(Lemontree?)

Till I was in service the MAG was always tripod mounted, and not used as a GPMG.

**Monte** · 20 May 06,, 17:25

Originally Posted by cottage cheese

.303" - Lee Enfield/RFI No-1MkIII, No4Mk1, Bren Mk1(?),2, (Manipur State police apparently has some Vintage Vickers MMGs in storage)

Being from Manipur, I’d like to write more on what cottage cheese has written.

Yes, Indeed, the Manipur Police Deptt. has Vintage Vickers MMGs, but as far as I know, it’s not fully in storage. It fares well especially among the units of the 1st India Reserve Battalion (also known as 11 Bn. Manipur Rifles), and are sometimes mounted on their 407 TATA BP vehicles. Also, it’s always a part of the Republic/Independent Day, mounted on the Mahindra Jeep (Old Model) as a pilot of the parade. As far as the .303 Lee Enfield is concerned, they are now mostly used by the Manipur Home Guards, and also as a ceremonial weapon.

Pardon me for my short knowledge, for I forgot the year. The MHA stopped supply of sophisticated weapons to the Manipur Police Deptt. for sometime due to the meek surrender of large quantities of arms & ammunitions to the NSCN (IM) by the 5th Bn. Manipur Rifles during a particular General Election. This led to the use of arms by the police Deptt. (RAPF/Police Commandos in particular ), especially of those surrendered or captured from UGs such as M16, RPK (mostly Chinese), RPD (mostly Chinese), AK-series rifles (mostly Type 56 and M22), W/T sets (mostly Kenwood), and M-20 Pistols made in China instead of the RFI-made GP35 clone.

Currently, the Deptt. is being provided the Bulgarian-made Black AKs, INSAS rifle, and the BRENs in 7.62x51mm which is still preferred as a static post LMG. In fact, the INSAS LMG is used in Manipur only by the Assam Rifles, CRPF, and a few units of the regular Army. The BSF used only the Bren, and they also do use the 81mm M2 Carl Gustav, which even the AR did’t use. Interestingly, I’ve occasionally seen the AR and some regular Army units armed with AGS-17 AGL and SVD Dragunov rifles.

What I wold like to comment about the BREN is the ablity of changing its barrel unlike the BAR, though its 30-round magazine is not sufficient as a weapon for sustained fire. However, if I were to rate INSAS LMG and the BREN, I’d go for the Bren. With the same magazine capacity, the BREN has the advantage of having an option to change the barrel.

Once again, pardon me if I deviate from the topic of the thread

**ChrisF202** · 21 May 06,, 02:50

Exactly how many cops are there in India that they dont all have a standard pistol or rifle? Is it because of the various different forces? If there is so many then why not just make a single national police force?

The NYPD has 29,000 officers and each has a Glock 17, some of the crusty old timers are still allowed to carry the .38 revolver (phased out in favor of the Glock 17 in 1992) but theres only a few hundred of them left on the active duty payroll mostly as higher rank detectives and in "the brass" ranks. As for long arms, its a mix of M4 carbines, Ruger Mini 14s (being phased out and replaced by the M4 carbine) and Remington 12 gague pump action shotguns.

**troung** · 21 May 06,, 03:47

The MAG is used as a Medium Machine Gun on tripod, and it is a company/ battalion support weapon, depending on the role being played by the unit (i.e defense or attack).

Sir about how many would be issued to the battalion?

The AGL replace the .50 cal HMG platoon of the past

So 1-2 AGLs per AGL squad? What size are the crews and ammunition carriers?

The 84mm Carl Gustav is a platoon weapon. At battalion level one has the Anti-tank platoon ATGMs though the 106mm jeep mounted RCL still exist

How many at the typical platoon in the IA/RR/PM? And is that the only platoon level fire support weapon? And sorry if this one is more difficult but how many rounds would be manpacked with the CG-84. And what size is the crew and are there men attached to carry rounds or are they normally divided among the platoon?

The number of rifle companies is more in COIN battalions, the rest of the organisation is the same as a standard infantry battalion. The changes in the equipment like of reduction in ATGMs (since it is not required the 84 mm is sufficient), mor platoon etc,..what ever heavy weapons are not required to fight an insurgency are replaced/ removed.

Are their 2 inch mortars in the RR?

A 'serious' deployment of police batallions would include the bren but mostly its riflemen and the carbine/AKM armed NCO.

So the regular riflemen with SMLE/FALs and the NCOs with AKM/carbines?

SVD - sniper rifles issued in standard inf battalion.

Has that caused any logistics problems to supply a different caliber of ammunition to the snipers? And are those normally issued at the battalion and chopped down to smaller units?

We still use the .30 Browning as sector stores is some sectors. Being transfered to Armed Police Battalions and CRPF battalions.

The M-1919A4/A6 model or the BAR?

The police has a more mind boggling logistic disaster waiting to happen:

Would one find all of those weapons in a single district?

Once again, pardon me if I deviate from the topic of the thread

Hey its great.

======
And with plans to arm the SFF with the Tavor and Galil-DM would they use the BREN or get the Negev LMG? I figure if the Tavor came they would not employ the INSAS-LSW. Does the SFF now issue heavier weapons such as the M-2 CG?

And anyone want to explain the different kinds of helmets in use?
========

Thanks guys it has been hard from where I am to get this information!

**lemontree** · 21 May 06,, 08:23

Originally Posted by troung

Sir about how many would be issued to the battalion?

Most commonwealth battalions have 8 per battalion.

So 1-2 AGLs per AGL squad? What size are the crews and ammunition carriers?

An AGL detachment has a crew of 3.
Commander
No.1 Gunner
No.2 Gunner (who acts as the loader).

How many at the typical platoon in the IA/RR/PM? And is that the only platoon level fire support weapon?

The AGL is a company/battalion support weapon its deployment/ employment is as per the role (i.e attack or defence).

And sorry if this one is more difficult but how many rounds would be manpacked with the CG-84. And what size is the crew and are there men attached to carry rounds or are they normally divided among the platoon?

The 84mm crew is 2 in number.
There is 1st line ammo, 2nd line ammo and the unit reserve.
During advance to contact the 1st line ammo (I'm not giving this out) is a lot more than what 2 people can carry and hence the load is divided, during re-org stage (after capturing the objective) the 2nd ammo is fetched up by the E-echelon.
In defence, the 1st line and 2nd line is at the defended locality and the unit reserve is kept at the coy HQ.

Are their 2 inch mortars in the RR?

Its is standard issue at platoon level in RR/PM units.

Has that caused any logistics problems to supply a different caliber of ammunition to the snipers? And are those normally issued at the battalion and chopped down to smaller units?

The SVD sniper rifle is standard issue in all inf battalions and are issued with match grade ammo, hence there is no logistics problem. The SOF units have their own toys and are issued their ammo as per their needs.

The M-1919A4/A6 model or the BAR?

The M-1919 (Browning Machine Gun) and not the BAR. BARs are very rare in India, they were standard issue for the Pak Army in the 60s.

And with plans to arm the SFF with the Tavor and Galil-DM would they use the BREN or get the Negev LMG? I figure if the Tavor came they would not employ the INSAS-LSW.

The SOF units may not use the INSAS, I am not sure, we'll have to wait and see.

Does the SFF now issue heavier weapons such as the M-2 CG?

Yes they do. Some SF units have a higher number authorised of 84mms.

And anyone want to explain the different kinds of helmets in use?

The 1st pic has the old US army sytle helmets that are standard issue in all units.
In the 2rd pic they are not wearing helmets. These are Sikh troops wearing their turbans.
The 3nd Pic shows the "bullet proof patka or helmet" that can stop a 7.62x51mm round at 25 mtrs.

**cottage cheese** · 21 May 06,, 15:12

Exactly how many cops are there in India

Lot's but still seriously understrength in terms of population size. The larger states like UP, Maharashtra etc. Have manpower running into hndreds of thousands. The Indian law & order structure is basically each state having it's own Police Force and Home Guard/Civil Defence. While these forces are augmented as, when and where needed by Central Police Organizations. The Central police organizations are raised and run by New Delhi, and elements of these forces are made available to whichever state government that requires it. The CRPF(Central Reserve Police Force) and RAF(Rapid Action Force) are the primary CPO's for L&O duty agumentation. We have other major CPO's like the BSF (Border Security Force), CISF (Central Industrial Security Force), ITBP (Indo-Tibetian Border Police), NSG(National Security Guards)-Anti terr, SPG(Special protaction group(Prime Minister Security), IB(Intelligence Bureau), CBI(Central Bureau Of Investigation), RPF(Railway Protection Force) etc are task specific and are generally not available for state use (or misuse). The CPO's are Large.

The government of India has, in recent years, set rolling a Police Modernization scheme, where in New Delhi (Ministry of Home Affairs) bankrolls 50% or more of all state police modernization expenses. In this respect, they have this arrangement where a state can raise an India Reserve Batallion (IRBn) with the center bearing most of the cost. Arms and ammunition are provided in kind (usually used-reconditioned army stuff) The IRBns are at least theoritically supposed to be available for the central government requirements anywhere in the country.This way many states have had their man power boosted siginficantly in recent years.

they don't all have a standard pistol or rifle? Is it because of the various different forces? If there is so many then why not just make a single national police force?

As of now (inspite of the change over to SLR's etc) the standard Service rifle is oficially the .303, and its associates are the STEN, Sterling, Bren, Ruger Service Six/Titan Tiger, GP35/P1A, 2"Mortar.

AK series weapons were also "standard" suppliments. The usual arrangement for importing AKs is this: The Union Home Ministry takes a culminated order from the various states, puts up a global tender for supply- The best bid(rather the highest bidder in terms of bribes and kickbacks) gets to supply the stuff by the truckload. The early consignments of AKs for all states were Soviet AKM and AKMS assault rifles - I like them. Some Hungarian pieces seem to have also slipped in but most of these are apparently in the NSG inventory.The recent batches are all black Bulgarian stuff. It's a torrid bribe-bad quality equation. They look pretty but the quality is suspect.

The Norinco Type56-1 and M22 are prolific in this region and like wise countless seized/captured stock end up being requisitioned into local police use. The Army, oddly, doesn't have too many many Soviet/Russian AKs in its inventory. Most are 2nd hand East German MPiKM-72 and MPiKMS-72 and Romanian made versions of the same. Add a few thousand Vz58's and 58P's. Now Ak's are apparently being assembled by the Ordnnance Factories.

Most of the other old non commonwealth odd balls are/were there simply because there was nothing else to issue in the early post-independence years.

Why we don't have a National Police Force is very complex and it would be a serious digression perhaps we can push this in another thread.

**Monte** · 21 May 06,, 15:13

Originally Posted by ChrisF202

Exactly how many cops are there in India that they dont all have a standard pistol or rifle? Is it because of the various different forces? If there is so many then why not just make a single national police force?

A national police may not be the best taking into account India’s huge and immense diversities.

Originally Posted by ChrisF202

The NYPD has 29,000 officers and each has a Glock 17, some of the crusty old timers are still allowed to carry the .38 revolver (phased out in favor of the Glock 17 in 1992) but theres only a few hundred of them left on the active duty payroll mostly as higher rank detectives and in "the brass" ranks. As for long arms, its a mix of M4 carbines, Ruger Mini 14s (being phased out and replaced by the M4 carbine) and Remington 12 gague pump action shotguns.

Here, mostly, personnel posted in an Outpost or stations are not issued a particular firearm. It is issued by the armourer according to the need of the situation. As an example, LMGs such as the BREN are fitted on the observation post, but not issued to particular personnel unless they are in a mobile unit.

Mostly, the Police forces of Indian states are divided into two – one civil police and the other Armed Police Battalion.

In India, a constable issued a standard rifle (.303 SMLE/SLR or FNFAL/ AK) and an NCO (Up to the rank of Sergeant) with a Sterling/AK. A JCO (Junior Commissioned Officer) is issued with a Sterling/AK or a handgun, mainly the GP35 variant made by RFI. The Glock 17s (and only 17s, not 18s etc.) are issued only to high ranking officers, though it’s common in the Army. Ruger Service Six in .38 and S&W in .38Spl are also very common, and they are very much preferred in situations where it is assumed that the revolver will fare better than the pistol.

The heaviest weapon used by the civil police is the BREN. In case of the armed police battalions (comprising of the Manipur Rifles/IRB in my state’s context), the heaviest being the Vickers, RPG-7s (mostly captured), 81mm Mortars though the 2” one is most common. BTW, the Vickers was inherited by the Manipur Police from the British, before its union with India. The State Military Police (SMP) started in 1892 came to be known as the 1st Bn. Manipur Rifles, and since then, their rising day has been observed as the Manipur Police Raising Day, celebrating its centenary in 1992.

As for the history of the Manipur Police it is as old as the history of the State itself

The above mentioned quote is taken from “Brief Histories Of The Army And Police Set-Ups In India” by Damodar Waikhom, IPS, who retired as IGP/Training-***-Director, Manipur Police Training School.

**Monte** · 21 May 06,, 15:28

Originally Posted by cottage cheese

The recent batches are all black Bulgarian stuff. It's a torrid bribe-bad quality equation. They look pretty but the quality is suspect.

I agree with you CC Sir. The black Bulgarian stuff do look pretty, but quality wise... it's sometimes even inferior to the old 47s. Also, it's heavy, considering the materials used.

**cottage cheese** · 21 May 06,, 15:32

Originally Posted by Monte

Being from Manipur, I’d like to write more on what cottage cheese has written.

Hi Monte, Nice meeting you - we live nearby! Small world. Thanks for your input on the Manipur Police hardware. Man I'd love to give those Vickers a go at the range.
Just as you mentioned, captured/surrendered hardware are being pressed into service here as well. The usual fare...Type 56-1, M22, Type 56 Carbines(SKS), Type-59(RPD), Type(?)(RPK), Dragunov, POF G3's, M-16A1, M20, Cz75, Cz85 blah blah...
A substantial stock seized RPG7V rockets exists along with a launcher or two but they are not being used. I do know the J&K police SOG use captured RPGs.

I do remember someone mentioning that the Mizoram Police use Vz61 Skorpions- what I don't know is if it was a deliberate purchase or a bunch of MNF hand-me-downs.

Once again a big hello....