Why use shotguns over other guns?

**roffelskates** · 09 Feb 12,, 17:41

So I've been going around reading and watching stuff from gun people about Shotguns like Chris Byrne and Nutnfancy about shotguns. They all explain the disadvantages of it but similarly say that there is no substitute to a 12 gauge shotgun in personal defense. But they never actually qualify why a 12 gauge shotgun is better in role than a full sized 45 pistol like an XD or Glock, or a tactical carbine.

So I ask the community... why a shotgun? (specifically for home defense, and Police work)

Some acknowledgement I have for shotguns.

A: It's powerful (no denying it)
B: It can blow locks off doors (but even in training when specific techniques not employed, it is both dangerous and unreliable)
C: It's intimidating
D: It's inexpensive

The disadvantages

A: Without applying for registration your barrel length is >18.5 inches and 26 inches in overall length (generally impossible to achieve minimum of both without bull-pup designs like the KSG shotgun) Long guns = bad guns in close quarters
B: the majority of shotgun loads have issues penetrating body armor (Police applications mostly)
C: Limited capacity of generally 8 rounds, maybe less (and you can forget about the possibilities of reloading)
D: Despite low penetration, chance of collateral damage is high
E: Heavy compared to most carbines (And especially compared to a pistol)
F: Hard to find a place for it in your home due to it's sized (compared to pistol)
G: Limited range for safe engagement (even compared to a pistol)

So all this points to it generally being better to have a full sized Glock 21 with 13 rounds of JHP ammo, or a pistol carbine in the same chambering. Is there anything I'm missing that still makes the shotgun a more optimal choice in situations of home defense or police work? It's not like +P .45 JHP Isn't an effective man stopper, neither is it any harder for it to control compared to a 12 gauge.

**chanjyj** · 09 Feb 12,, 18:04

Most people can't aim for crap under stress. The shotgun solves that,

**USSWisconsin** · 09 Feb 12,, 19:10

So all this points to it generally being better to have a full sized Glock 21 with 13 rounds of JHP ammo, or a pistol carbine in the same chambering. Is there anything I'm missing that still makes the shotgun a more optimal choice in situations of home defense or police work? It's not like +P .45 JHP Isn't an effective man stopper, neither is it any harder for it to control compared to a 12 gauge.

More skills to operate pistol
More range time needed for pistol and more use of expensive ammo to gain adequate proficency (a single box of shotgun ammo is enough practice for shotgun marksmanship in HD senario - the other aspects are the same - when to use it - how etc.)
Pistols are not legal in many places
Pistol is more expensive
Shotgun is much more intimdating including the sound of racking it.

In any case any gun in the hands of someone without the skills or will to use it is more dangerous to a home owner, his family and neighbors than it is to anyone else.

8 round - 13 rounds - there is no difference - if you can't get it done with one or two - you aren't going to get it done with 20 or 30 either - you aren't gearing up to fight a platoon of infantry are you?

**omon** · 09 Feb 12,, 19:11

you don't need more than few shots for home defence, you aren't fighting a war at home, even double barrel is enough, in 90% cases presence of a weapon is enough to make invaders run.
size really isn't an issue at home, coach guns are about 30" long.
police use shotguns cuz the can load them with slug, buck, or bean bags, very versatale weapon, also cops dont shoot at long ranges, there is a swat for that, almost all police involved shootings last seconds.
it is a lot easier to hit something with shotgun than with pistol.
you can buy shotgun in walmart with only driver lisence, for pistol in most states you need permit.
it would be very stupid to use a carabine or a rifle as home defence weapon, it will go thru your house, and the next. not to mention it is easy to miss, espesially under stress.
shotgun you can load with bird shot, at 3-5 yards it will still be a as lethal as a slug, but it wont go thru sheetrock wall.

**roffelskates** · 09 Feb 12,, 19:49

You guys do make good points, but more specifically what I'm asking is what does a shotgun do for you that a pistol or pistol carbine cannot do equally or more capable.

A Pistol requires more skill and is more complicated:

My Response: Are shotguns not more complicated and generally a problem for women shooters more than pistols? Isn't that why we have stuff like the Knoxx stocks to mitigate recoil? And a lot of shooters have issues with handling and wielding a 8+ pound gun. Operating a pump is objectively more complicated than just pulling the trigger over and over again.

B: Pistols are not legal in many places

True very good point, especially where I live in Canada. But the people advocating these generally live in places where they have both options yet they choose the shotgun.

C: Why do you need more rounds than 8 or even 2? Most encounters end in less than a minute, you don't need 13 rounds.

True, but 13 beats 8 or 2. If you can 13 rounds of effective man stoppers it will give you more options. And 13 Easily re-loadable rounds is better than 8 difficult and slow loading rounds.

D: it is a lot easier to hit something with shotgun than with pistol.

Yes but that works both ways, and shotguns are also more accurate than most people think they are. Shotguns are not area of effect weapons (unless they are tuned by rifling to) It's also easier to hit something you did not intend to hit.

E: Carbines go through walls

Yes, but with .223 in particular in the right loading such as light weight JHP will most likely break up through double layer plaster and drywall.

F: Shotguns are more versatile to police

True but I know of no ordinary police officers who had both riot bean bag loadings and 00 at the same time.

**USSWisconsin** · 09 Feb 12,, 20:21

True, but 13 beats 8

I disagree: when you only need 2, 8 and 13 are the same-the only difference is how many are left over

You didn't mention carbines in your original question - and I don't think a carbine is a good weapon for inside HD, especialy a .223 - it is a fine ranch gun - but inferior to a pistol or a shotgun inside the house or in an urban SD situation.

**Doktor** · 09 Feb 12,, 21:02

Interesting question.

Personally, I'd go for the pistol, never liked shotguns, too big and often too noisy for my taste.

Holding a big stick that 'wont/can't miss' gives false feeling of unbeatability (is it a word

) to an untrained person. A recipe for disaster.

If you are untrained with fire arms, better build a panic room

**Double Edge** · 09 Feb 12,, 21:39

Originally Posted by Doktor

gives false feeling of unbeatability (is it a word

)

no

invulnerability is a better choice

**Gun Grape** · 10 Feb 12,, 01:07

Originally Posted by chanjyj

Most people can't aim for crap under stress. The shotgun solves that,

No it doesn't.

At distant ranges the spread is fairly wide but at home engagement ranges the pattern doesn't have the distance to spread. Its just as easy to miss with a shotgun as it is with a pistol.

That is the main problem I have with shotguns for self defense. People with little experience think they can clear a hallway with one shot. So they don't spend time practicing.

When used by a well trained individual, a shotgun is deadly. With little chance of over penetration or collateral damage.

Much easier to aim when nervous. Longer site radius improves accuracy.

I've seen people (trained individuals) dump a 15 round mag, while under pressure, and not hit the target at 7 yards with a pistol. All it takes is a slight twist of the hand.

But as many of us have stated over and over again, The best weapon for home defense IS THE ONE YOU TRAIN WITH.

**Gun Grape** · 10 Feb 12,, 01:20

Originally Posted by roffelskates

You guys do make good points, but more specifically what I'm asking is what does a shotgun do for you that a pistol or pistol carbine cannot do equally or more capable.

More knock down power. One hit, even with a 20 gage, shooting #6 bird shot is going to stop an intruder. Not so with either a 9mm or a .45. A shotgun maximizes wound trauma.

yes, but with .223 in particular in the right loading such as light weight JHP will most likely break up through double layer plaster and drywall.

Do you want to bet your childs life, in the next room, with Most likely won't penetrate the wall into his/her bedroom? Or a neighbor, if you live in an apartment?

**roffelskates** · 10 Feb 12,, 01:39

Originally Posted by Gun Grape

More knock down power. One hit, even with a 20 gage, shooting #6 bird shot is going to stop an intruder. Not so with either a 9mm or a .45. A shotgun maximizes wound trauma.

Do you want to bet your childs life, in the next room, with Most likely won't penetrate the wall into his/her bedroom? Or a neighbor, if you live in an apartment?

Is 12 Gauge 00 buck shot or even birdshot something you want to bet someone's life on the other side of that wall either?

**RustyBattleship** · 10 Feb 12,, 01:49

My family and I have been around all kinds of guns all of our lives. And I've seen lots and lots of women on the trap and skeet ranges and they have no problem at all handling 12 gauge.

Of course, that's only trap or skeet loads with only # 7 1/2 down to # 9 shot. But my wife has also fired buck shot from my Model 97 Winchester Riot gun (20" barrel).

I've always advised people to use a shotgun for home defense with skeet loads for several reasons.
1: At the range the home invader is at would be 20 feet at the MOST. So the wad of 1 1/8 ounces of shot would still dig a rat hole into him.
2: You will be in a very high emotional state (near panic). Even at close range, shaking, screaming and the intruder hoping side to side may cause you to miss the first shot or two. Even if the broken open door is behind him, by the time the shot hits your neighbor's house the most it would do is break a window.
3: If you live in an apartment, the double plastered wall between you and the next apartment will have an immediate porthole in it, but the most hits your neighbors will get is plaster and maybe the mother-in-law's picture on the wall.

Buck shot loads are only for longer ranges at moving (or multiple) bad guys. Or White Tail deer if you are a hunter in Wisconsin.

**Gun Grape** · 10 Feb 12,, 01:50

Originally Posted by roffelskates

Is 12 Gauge 00 buck shot or even birdshot something you want to bet someone's life on the other side of that wall either?

12 gage 00 might be shell number 3 in the tube. The birdshot isn't going to penetrate a standard built wall. like a .223 will.

Lots of small lightweight projectiles. They lose energy quickly, unlike a rifle or carbine round. But if by chance a few do penetrate both sheets of drywall, I would rather have my child hit with a 2 grain #6 pellet than 30 to 60 grain 5.56/.223 round.

**USSWisconsin** · 10 Feb 12,, 02:03

Remember the gun should be right for the shooter, if a person is small - a smaller gun like a 20 guage or .410 is better, and you don't need goose magnum shells for SD - long range is not desirable -nor is a big boom or bright flash from a magnum load. The target will be close, a light load of light shot will blow them to hell - I have #12 and #8 x 2 3/4" loads for SD and some 000 buck in 2 1/8" shells - but those wouldn't be the first round.

**omon** · 10 Feb 12,, 03:10

spread isn't what makes shotgun easier to hit a target with. it is the fact that you use both hands to hold it in 2 different places, plus the stock is pressed against the shoulder, also the fact that you aim looking along the barrel, makes it easier to aim.
same thing that makes rifle easier to shoot than handgun, but shotgun shot wont go thru the house, or two.