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Thread: INSAS vs AK47 vs M16?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samudra
    Yeah.
    I recollect seeing a black INSAS used by a RNA solider in a picture on BR.
    Noticed (nevertheless), the black mirror finish?

    ....Eyurrrgh.....
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    Last edited by cottage cheese; 08 Aug 05, at 05:37.

  2. #17
    Senior Contributor Samudra's Avatar
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    Yes Sir , it had a black finish...

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottage cheese
    Seen the version with the FAL type folding stock? I don't know what the designing committee (I'm told the INSAS is a glorious instance of a committee designed firearm... can you believe that?!! ) were thinking, but the vertical span is way too much... probably put a mesh on it and use it as a tennis racket!
    Here's the next version of the INSAS, The EXCALIBUR.It is supposedly meant for the para-troopers. But I don't know if they 've been issued already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer
    Here's the next version of the INSAS, The EXCALIBUR.It is supposedly meant for the para-troopers. But I don't know if they 've been issued already.
    Oops! talk about being out of the loop- didn't know Excalibur was out yet ...and here i am yapping like I'm Ian Hogg or something. Thanks for the update.

    Excalibur -fancy name eh?! Must be some new bloke in the IOF and not the usual corny bunch of dinosaurs. The stock has changed for the better (phew!) with an obvious SIG/G36 basis for design and locking method. Looks like they've brought back the FAL type pistol grip.

    The forend is what grabs my attention - the gas block/foresight post looks like a significant revision away from the straight forward FNC copy. A vague resemblance to the AK100 series minus the hole. Along with the fat hand guard, the forend has that very "Singapore" look to it. The metal finish still leaves a lot to be desired. Hope the 30 round magazine in the second pic is going to be standard issue. Notice also, departure from European styling of the muzzle - The FN type muzzle has given way to a more M16-ish affair.
    Last edited by cottage cheese; 08 Aug 05, at 10:34.

  5. #20
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    Was it really worth to bild a new SLR, when we coulod have bought rights for AK47 from russian.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottage cheese
    By the way, lemontree, I take it you're in the Military (Infantry?) so you'd have more hands on experience with it no doubt

    I kind of get carried away and I just started wondering why I'm giving you a lecture on what you already have !! Its like going to Mr.Kalashnikov or Mr. Stoner and giving them a monologue on their respective weapons.
    I was in the army, not anymore.
    It was nice to see your enthu.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JASOOS VIJAY
    Was it really worth to bild a new SLR, when we coulod have bought rights for AK47 from russian.
    I'd have liked licence manufacture or either the AUG or the FNC... FNC would've made a better choice sice we already manufacture quite a few FN derived weapons... SLR(indirect), GP35(now Pistol 1A) and the MAG-58. Funny thing is we chose to mostly work on indirect FN designs- SLR1A - based on the Brit L1A1 and the Pistol1A - clearly based on the Canadian Inglis Mk1.

    Choosing to license manufacture AKs in this era is somewhat retrograde. There are better arms around. Mind you, I'm not saying the AK is junk - hell as long as it spits out m43's, it gets my respect... for that matter any weapon that is capable of delivering goods where they are supposed to.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottage cheese
    I'd have liked licence manufacture or either the AUG or the FNC... FNC would've made a better choice sice we already manufacture quite a few FN derived weapons...
    Pakistanis licence manufacture AUG steyr already. So I doubt if it would've been chosen. What do you think about Tavor rifles?
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer
    Pakistanis licence manufacture AUG steyr already. So I doubt if it would've been chosen. What do you think about Tavor rifles?
    Manufacturing? I thought they were simply buying the squirt guns off the rack. I did hear they were planning to replace the G3 with the AUG in a while. Other than the face value embarassment we'd feel when we compare it with the INSAS, I don't really think it'll make a world of a difference... provide we do some quick pragmatic upgrade jobs on the INSAS... this is possible... seen how MODs can enhance the basic M4's?

    Tavor? That's something I'm yet to lay my hands on. Looks promising and not too radical to upset current training and operational procedure. That skinny and exposed trigger looks scary to me... fine candidate for ND's. Also worrying is the lack of back up conventional sights. Otherwise, it seems to be fairly well balanced package.

    There's one weapon I fell in love with the moment i saw it- The Steyr SSG69 - I didn't know the BSF were using it till I happened to drop into their depot. That's one neat piece. The Polymer Green stock was perfectly contoured and the whole piece was so balanced. Funny thing is they kept it stored, minus scope, in its Nylon carrying sheath which in turn was neatly packed in the Steyr Mannlicher Carton case. The scope sat in it's OG plastic case seperately in another room... I guess they'd be zeroing the thing half the time.
    Last edited by cottage cheese; 08 Aug 05, at 19:17.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottage cheese
    Manufacturing? I thought they were simply buying the squirt guns off the rack. I did hear they were planning to replace the G3 with the AUG in a while.
    I think you are right.POF website doesnt say anything about Steyr AUG. They must be buying off the rack.

    Quote Originally Posted by cottage cheese
    That skinny and exposed trigger looks scary to me...
    It looks very similar to Giat FAMAS but then FAMAS has some sort of safety catch. Check out the pics.
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    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)

  11. #26
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    Guys here is a small essay I have written on the origins of the INSAS concept. Do correct me if I have made any errors. I posted this on another forum some months back to remove many misconceptions about the rifle.
    INSAS
    Information about the INSAS available in the media is a mix of pessimism and optimism, and none can be blamed for developing a bias either good or bad. I am attempting to dispel a few myths and inform readers about the Indian Small Arms Systems (INSAS).
    Development of the INSAS concept
    In the mid 80s the Indian Army had decided to switch over from the 7.62 mm NATO calibre to 5.56 mm NATO. It was also decided to switch over from the L1A1 to a more modern and lighter infantry rifle. In 1985, after the trials, the Aug Styr and the H&Ks G41 were short listed for final selection. Both these rifles are excellent weapons in their respective class and both the manufacturers offered transfer of technology and licenses production. But the Indian Army had the following observations for Aug Styr and G41:
    Aug Styr
    Pros:-
    - Inter-changeable barrels for rifle, carbine and LMG.
    - Common parts reduced logistics and simplified training of troops.
    Cons:-
    - Not an ideal infantry battle rifle (but suitable for SOF units).
    The term “battle rifle” fits a weapon that has suitable stand off distance for bayonet fighting and the Aug Styr does not allow that due to its compact size. The butt end has to be strong enough to withstand punishment in hand-to-hand combat. The Aug Styr lacked these two quality requirements (QR).
    G41
    Pros:-
    - The weapon fitted all the QRs for a battle rifle.
    Cons:-
    - The G41 did not offer anything new apart for 5.56 mm calibre. This role could be achieved in the L1A1s by conversion of these rifles from 7.62mm to 5.56mm.
    - The G41 did not offer the inter-changeable components as offered by the Aug Styr.
    Army HQ asked DRDO if the Aug Styrs’ capabilities could be achieved in a battle rifles design like the G41. It was a challenging task, as DRDO had no experience in development of small arms. Till then the organisation had only made copies of the L1A1 and L4, and a modified L1A1 (heavy barrelled auto) called 1C (for Mech units). It was not a matter of national pride but the development of a concept.
    Due to lack of prior experience in rifle design and development, DRDO chose the simplest and proven design for the operating system. Hence, the AK-74 operating system was chosen, giving rise to statements that it is an AK74 copy. The commonality in major components had to be maintained for the rifle, LMG and carbine. The primary feature had be quick change of barrels in all three versions of the weapon system. Features of most successful rifles were incorporated to achieve the desired results. Design features of the M16, G3 and FN were used towards that effect.
    After initial trails and errors DRDO produced prototypes of the rifle, LMG and carbine, these were tested and the Army kept pointing out deficiencies and recommended improvements. DRDO however, could not provide quick barrel change facility in the 3 weapon types. This was also one of the reasons for the delay in induction. Each type of weapon had some deficiencies that had to be cleared before being inducted into the 3rd largest army in the world.
    INSAS 1B1 Rifle
    The INSAS 1B1 rifle looks like an FN FNC on observation. Maximum efforts were put to clear all deficiencies of this weapon since it was the most crucial of the 3 weapons. The delay in induction of the 1B1 rifle forced the army to purchase 100,000 Romanian AKs to equip the COIN units, the non-commando battalions of the Parachute Regiment, and J&K Police during the mid 90s. At the same time captured AKs/ T-56 from militants were recycled (after refurbishment), and issued to police and para-military units as per requirement.
    The INSAS rifle was under going user trials since 91-93 and ultimately was inducted in 1997 (13 yrs after initiation). The rifle saw active service in 1999 during the limited war in Kargil sector. The functioning was satisfactory and the users like the weapon. It fulfilled the requirements of a rugged and reliable infantry rifle. Minor complaints get referred to the Ordinance factory through the EME workshops and improvements are made.
    It is pertinent to mention that contrary to reports in articles written (by journalists with little or no understanding of small arms), frontline units are using the weapon in operational areas.
    INSAS LMG
    The highlight of the INSAS LMG is the absence of the spare barrel that is common in most LMGs/ SAWs. This aspect reduces the strength of crew served weapons, eliminates dual role and increases the bayonet strength of the rifle section/ squad. The barrel of the LMG was supposed to withstand continuous firing without the requirement of change of barrel. This problem could only be solved in 2000/01. Prior to that the barrels bulged/ or burst during tests, when the barrels were subjected to continuous firing of hundreds of rounds in a given time frame.
    The weapon was inducted 15 years after initiation of development. The problems have been rectified as far as the army is concerned. Improvements are being made, as it is an evolving process.
    INSAS carbine
    This has been to most trouble prone element of the INSAS family that has not yet reached an acceptable level for induction in the army. Presently IMI of Israel is assisting in its development.
    Its was thought that the A-7 the 5.56mm version of the AK that was being planned would fill the void of the carbine and assist in phasing out the Sterling 9 mm carbine. There is not much news about it hence it is only speculation.
    One major QR not fulfilled by the INSAS rifle and LMG is the quick change of barrel like the Aug Styr. However, all the criticism related to the delay in 20 years for the INSAS to get inducted is unfounded. The M16A1 had a miserable record due to regular jamming and its reputation suffered. By the time the M16A2 came it was a considerable 20 years till the faults were rectified.
    The AK 47 in its present avatar has been around for the past 55 years and still happens to be the most inaccurate rifle around (its ruggedness is unquestionable), and is the last choice for most armies. The PLA too kept is only as an SMG in its squads, and has developed the SKS into a decent T-81/87 battle rifle.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  12. #27
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    Lemontree, that's a well researched one. I picked up some interesting tidbits from it. Thanks. Since I'm essentially a gun person (I'm planning to apply for a gunsmithing license Form IX or XI - I know its going to be difficult but what the hell...) so my perspective is more often than not, technical. I'm a hopless shot anyway.

    About the INSAS, we could have done better- We had and have the capability... I feel the problem is with ability. I feel we have difficulty getting out of the conventional mindset. The whole establishment is too bureaucratic and even scientists and technicians behave and work like bureaucrats. That is the essential flaw. What we need is fresh young blood and a whole new work culture with all incentives for hard work and above all- accountability.

    Anyway, since we are left with the INSAS in hand at the end of the day, sizable effort should be channeled to product improvement and upgrades. The private sector should be allowed to have a crack at it and very importantly stringent quality control (I've seen junk that some Private Sector companies have produced)

    I kind of feel embarassed when the government is forced to purchase hundreds of thousands of AKs for hard cash... for no better reason than slackness of the domestic setups. You can often gauge a countrys desperation(economic or political or military) when brand-new AKs start appearing in its arsenal. Didn't we just recently import a huge consignment of Bulgarian AKs? those full Black ones? They look pretty but are substandard. Most have gone to CRPF and State police forces. Hope this will be the end of AK purchases for us. I've had it up to here with the standard line on the media "...sophisticated weapons like the AK47..." speaking of which, I remember a newspaper report in the 80s about an arms seizure in Punjab which included a "9kilometer Sten machine turbine" - 'nuff said.

    Whats your mind on the future of the INSAS?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottage cheese
    Lemontree, that's a well researched one.
    Ditto.

    Quote Originally Posted by cottage cheese
    The private sector should be allowed to have a crack at it and very importantly stringent quality control (I've seen junk that some Private Sector companies have produced)
    Yes, privatization will help a lot in improving the standards.


    Lemontree and Cottage cheese, whats your take on SA Vz.58 (czechoslovakian version of AK) ? I 've seen some Indian army units use those rifles.
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'...till you can find a rock. ;)

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cottage cheese
    About the INSAS, we could have done better- We had and have the capability... I feel the problem is with ability. I feel we have difficulty getting out of the conventional mindset. The whole establishment is too bureaucratic and even scientists and technicians behave and work like bureaucrats. That is the essential flaw. What we need is fresh young blood and a whole new work culture with all incentives for hard work and above all- accountability.

    Anyway, since we are left with the INSAS in hand at the end of the day, sizable effort should be channeled to product improvement and upgrades. The private sector should be allowed to have a crack at it and very importantly stringent quality control (I've seen junk that some Private Sector companies have produced)
    I agree. The problem is lack of passion.
    Didn't we just recently import a huge consignment of Bulgarian AKs? those full Black ones?
    The full black ones are Romanian and the went to the Parachute Regiment (non commando). The Bulgarian ones are different, they look the same as other AK-47s/AK-56s.
    I've had it up to here with the standard line on the media "...sophisticated weapons like the AK47..." speaking of which, I remember a newspaper report in the 80s about an arms seizure in Punjab which included a "9kilometer Sten machine turbine" - 'nuff said.

    Whats your mind on the future of the INSAS?
    Its a good battle rifle and LMG, but requires more R&D. But the point is that it is our own product and can be sold in the open market without taking permission from any supplier country.
    Last edited by lemontree; 09 Aug 05, at 08:54.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammer
    Lemontree and Cottage cheese, whats your take on SA Vz.58 (czechoslovakian version of AK) ? I 've seen some Indian army units use those rifles.
    Only the Para Commando units have them. They are on their way out and are being replaced by the Tavor.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

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