Thread: INSAS vs AK47 vs M16?

Originally Posted by T_igger_cs_30

A quick fix Sir?............Operation Banner 38 years, longest Operation in British History.
You cannot compare internal security duties to Iraq and Afghanistan.

Tigger,
Kashmir as against the political stand is not an internal security duty.
Militarily, it is one of the deadliest low-intensity war that a professional army is commited to. You are fighting the same terrorists and their warring techniques that the IA has been fighting for 3 decades, albeit under more political, media and HR pressure. Most of the times our boys have to fight with one hand tied at their back. Forget Torabora, think of a funeral procession of a slain terrorist that you have to allow amidst a densly populated town with children and women folks. Now imagine AKs rustlings from within the procession and your falling buddies and the fact that you don't have instant firing orders. Internal Security duty? Sir, these are hardened militants, trained by non other than the PA, an army trained in the Anglo-Saxon school of war traditions.

Delta,

Rather well said of the Kashmir situation.

Originally Posted by Deltacamelately

Tigger,
Kashmir as against the political stand is not an internal security duty.
Militarily, it is one of the deadliest low-intensity war that a professional army is commited to. You are fighting the same terrorists and their warring techniques that the IA has been fighting for 3 decades, albeit under more political, media and HR pressure. Most of the times our boys have to fight with one hand tied at their back. Forget Torabora, think of a funeral procession of a slain terrorist that you have to allow amidst a densly populated town with children and women folks. Now imagine AKs rustlings from within the procession and your falling buddies and the fact that you don't have instant firing orders. Internal Security duty? Sir, these are hardened militants, trained by non other than the PA, an army trained in the Anglo-Saxon school of war traditions.

I see your point Sir but you assume we were not "fighting with one hand tied behind our backs", during Op Banner we were not allowed to return fire unless fired upon, we had RoE, in the unlikely event we spotted an armed man in the open we had to issue a warning therefore allowing him to fire upon us.
As for funerals they were a nightmare, thousands(a lot forced) out for the funeral of the dead terrorist, and powerless because of the crowds to stop a volley of rounds being fired over the coffin by a hooded firing party, in fact we had unfortunate instances of men being cut of by the crowds and executed, with ensuing riots to ensure the get away of the terrorists, funerals were definately not the place to try and take out terrorists best to monitor and gather INTEL.
IMO the IRA were/are as hardened a militant group/terrorists as they come, they were well organised, well trained, adaptable and as dedicated to their cause as any group in the world. Indeed there skill and experience is saught by others in the world now.
Between 1969 and the ceasefire we lost over 700 soldiers, I do not have to hand the number of dead from the local Militia (UDR) and the Police service.
I to was not a lover of the term Internal securty.

Originally Posted by T_igger_cs_30

I see your point Sir but you assume we were not "fighting with one hand tied behind our backs", during Op Banner we were not allowed to return fire unless fired upon, we had RoE, in the unlikely event we spotted an armed man in the open we had to issue a warning therefore allowing him to fire upon us.
As for funerals they were a nightmare, thousands(a lot forced) out for the funeral of the dead terrorist, and powerless because of the crowds to stop a volley of rounds being fired over the coffin by a hooded firing party, in fact we had unfortunate instances of men being cut of by the crowds and executed, with ensuing riots to ensure the get away of the terrorists, funerals were definately not the place to try and take out terrorists best to monitor and gather INTEL.
IMO the IRA were/are as hardened a militant group/terrorists as they come, they were well organised, well trained, adaptable and as dedicated to their cause as any group in the world. Indeed there skill and experience is saught by others in the world now.
Between 1969 and the ceasefire we lost over 700 soldiers, I do not have to hand the number of dead from the local Militia (UDR) and the Police service.
I to was not a lover of the term Internal securty.

Tiger,
Our forces have to fight a very different kind of war. Unlike your COIN operations, we have to fight and at the same time keep the entire CI operations descalated. You have the liberty to take the war to the terrorist bases and their training camps too. You don't have to worry about fight a professional army in a full blown war involving arty and armour. You don't have to worry about your operations escalating to a nuclear exchange. Our forces have to continue fighting indefinitely and maintain tranquility along the LoC so as to ensure that the operations don't attain critical mass leading to a full blown war, possibly involving nukes. We have to take casualities and at the same time have to keep the militants in check. Our politicians lack balls to give our forces a go ahead and curb the militancy at its source. We don't have a Chenay at our disposal.

Originally Posted by Deltacamelately

Tiger,
Our forces have to fight a very different kind of war. Unlike your COIN operations, we have to fight and at the same time keep the entire CI operations descalated. You have the liberty to take the war to the terrorist bases and their training camps too. You don't have to worry about fight a professional army in a full blown war involving arty and armour. You don't have to worry about your operations escalating to a nuclear exchange. Our forces have to continue fighting indefinitely and maintain tranquility along the LoC so as to ensure that the operations don't attain critical mass leading to a full blown war, possibly involving nukes. We have to take casualities and at the same time have to keep the militants in check. Our politicians lack balls to give our forces a go ahead and curb the militancy at its source. We don't have a Chenay at our disposal.

Sir,
If we had been allowed to go to the sources, i.e. bases /training camps that were located in other countries with friendly governments/regimes to there cause it would not have lasted 38 years. Also it took a long time to stop ( if it ever truly did) the fund raising for there cause that was prevelant in other countries.

[QUOTE=T_igger_cs_30;559011]Sir,
If we had been allowed to go to the sources, i.e. bases /training camps that were located in other countries with friendly governments/regimes to there cause it would not have lasted 38 years. Also it took a long time to stop ( if it ever truly did) the fund raising for there cause that was prevelant in other countries.[/QUOTE

Just down the road from you werent they Wayne ?

Wayne,

Both our Armies operate under constraints.

You are fortunate since you are a Western Army. You will be criticised, but none will make a song and a dance over it and your govt couldn't be that concerned over human rights and such bunkum.

We are the third world. No matter what we do, we are ancient, inhuman, archaic etc etc. We can never do anything civilised! ) Therefore, we are under greater restraint. I am not whining. That is the fact. See how the BBC reports the event in Kashmir and see how it does the Western forces action.

BBC fudged clips from Iraq and passed it off as Kashmir. There was an outcry in India. Did BBC apologise? No. That is the disdain the third world is looked at!

And yet, they make a mountain of a molehill over small issues in the third world since we are still considered as not yet ''arrived''.

I am not complaining. I have got used to it. Just informing as to what we are subjected to.

If we did a cross border incursion, there would be hell to pay!!

You all can and it will be justified.

Take the current economic crisis. No one is blaming the source! The greed and avarice that Shylock would be ashamed of. And the world is trying to salvage these wonders of the financial world!! As if it is the govts of the world's fault!!

Our money (taxpayers) to salvage the fat cats. Why? They are the pillars of the system and we can't insult them!!