Rise of the M-4 death of the MP-5?

**troung** · 15 May 05,, 01:17

Now that I have you here...

Most CT/HR units in major nations have been moving towards the M-4 Carbine over the MP-5. Most field Special Forces work is being handled by the M-4/CAR-15/C-8 with the MP-5s which everyone bought back in the 1980s picking up dust in lockers. The MP-5 looked so ready to take over the world back in the 1980s and these days is very much in the back seat.

The MP-5 was very rare for field work in OEF. American, British, Australian, Canadian and other SF units on field work carried the M-4 or some version of it (C-8). Of course the M-4A1 hits better over distance shooting.

Since the start of the WOT we have been setting up CT/HR units in other nations such as Pakistan and Indonesia. Those two picked up large numbers of MP-5s, yet the new units they have formed are running around with M-4A1s which seem to be making their way to other units with in those nations. Pakistan had a handful of M-16s before hand but now uses M-4s for CT/HR work. Detachment 91 in Indonesia uses M-4A1s and is currently the only unit there to use it for right now.

Britain, France, Australia, Pakistan, Italy, Spain, Greece, Turkey and Portugal are a few of the nations that have picked up C-8/CAR-15/M-4s for Special Forces despite the fact that they don't issue the M-16 much to regular guys and supply leg infantry with different weapons (AUG, FAL, G-3, SA-80, FAMAS etc..). I have seen images of Indian soldiers with M-4/CAR-15s, and of course Israel uses the CAR-15/M-4 as the standard weapon for combat units. American SWAT units have begun to pick up more M-4s as shown by times when they deploy to the streets.

So it is not just in comparision to the MP-5 but to other guns as well. The M-4A1 was built with the P-Rail in mind (other way around) but yet other guns have P-Rails but the M-4A1 is still the favorite these days. Not saying the gun is not without flaws but it is pretty much stomping the competition.......

Pakistani SSG
Australian SAS
Indonesian Detachment 91 members
French Special Forces
British SAS

**leib10** · 15 May 05,, 02:48

It may be, but the MP5 will always have a role, especially when overpenetration is an issue. BTW, is that an MP5 that the French guy on the left is holding?

**sniperdude411** · 15 May 05,, 03:08

CQB, CQB, CQB.
Most soldiers in Iraq are favoring the mp-5 over the M4 for door-to-door combat.
The mp-5 is very rare because it is not standard-issue to most units.

**leib10** · 15 May 05,, 03:09

I myself would prefer an MP5 for CQB. Nice and compact, yet with greater range than a shotgun and therefore more flexible than a shotgun. The SEAL's still use them for this if I'm not mistaken.

**troung** · 15 May 05,, 06:24

CQB, CQB, CQB.Most soldiers in Iraq are favoring the mp-5 over the M4 for door-to-door combat.

The USMC Force Recon has put the MP-5s back into their wall lockers and are using the M-4A1 even for ship board CT missions and other types of CT missions not just field work.

Det 91 is totally CQB/HR/CT tasked and use the M-4A1s and not the MP-5s. FYI that nation got a large number of MP-5s but the newest CT unit does not issue them.

The MP-5s that saw action in OEF were either silenced or with pilots.

And in my post I was also pointing out how other nations are picking up M-4A1s (and similar models) for Special Forces even when said nations don't even issue the M-16. As far as Special Forces rifles go the M-4/CAR-15/C-8 are taking over the show from the MP-5 and other weapons systems in many militaries.

Not saying the MP-5 will dissapear I just needed to grab attention...

Greek Commandos
Greek Special Forces
Turkish Special Forces
Indonesian Detachment 91
French Special Forces

**troung** · 15 May 05,, 06:48

During the Russian invasion of Afghanistan the Russian hit team were armed with AK-74s and AK-47s and wore vests and helmets. Amin's guards carried MP-5s. It was rather lopsided even though they did hit the Russians with bullets (so not like they totally sucked). The 9mm bullets would not go through the Russians vests. Most Russian injuries from 9mm fire were to the arms and legs and some guys got hit with 7.62mm fire and fragments from 23mm rounds. Five bucks said the Russian losses would have been worse had the guards carried rifles.

Some more guys with M-4/CAR-15/T-86s

Jordanians with Type-86s (Taiwanese made)
Iraqi Special Forces
Russian

Pakistani CT "Elite Force"
Indian HALO jumper

**Franco Lolan** · 15 May 05,, 16:08

If 9mm MP-5 has hollow point rounds does it penetrate vests?

**leib10** · 15 May 05,, 16:40

Quite the opposite. Hollowpoints have less penetrative power than FMJ's because the force of the bullet is spread out over a wider area.

**sniperdude411** · 15 May 05,, 16:44

An mp5 in .357 Magnum would work-out quite well.

**leib10** · 15 May 05,, 19:24

Too much recoil, especially in full auto.

**sniperdude411** · 15 May 05,, 23:05

How 'bout a .357 Mag. shell crimped to a .30 caliber bullet?

**AutopilotOFF** · 16 May 05,, 01:32

Ok, here's my opinion. I have seen close up's of light infantry C8 SFW's (modified m4) and I've heard that they are great weapons. However, what about hostage rescue. Would it be smart to storm a building or aircraft filled with hostages, using the more powerful weapon?

Would adding a suppressor to the m4, lessen the possible overpenetration?

**Beaugeste93** · 16 May 05,, 03:27

MP5s are usful for CQB primarily because they are light and handy. That being said, people are finally realizing that pistol-caliber subguns are of very limited utility. Many SWAT teams are also going to .223 caliber weapons because of their greater tactical flexibility.
The MP5 is excellent for what it does, but a true assault weapon is generally more versatile.

I have not fired one myself so its hard to have a true opinion, but I have to respond to the poster above that I'd rather have my shotgun. I can put a slug in a human head sized target at 60 yards with my issue scattergun (if both of us are still-not that likely in the real world, I admit) but I can hit center mass all day long, and that slug is stiill going to put the bad guy down at that range. Even the MP10 is at a disadvantage at longer range.

**ak-dave** · 16 May 05,, 07:16

All kinds of thoughts flying here. Military has to use FMJ to stay friendly, no hollow points.

.357 is a rimmed cartridge, makes it troublesome in a magazine fed weapon. That’s why most everything in a magazine is rimless. I know, .303 Brit & 54R.

The suppressor is just noise reduction by controlling the gases from the gunpowder. The bullets are usually sub-sonic which also helps in over penetration too. Full power cartridges are wicked harsh on suppressors, drastically reducing service life.

I’m pre-M4 days. Shot both MP5 and CAR. It’s hard and not fair to compare a SMG against a carbine. It’s like trying to use oranges to make apple juice; they each have their own characteristics and purposes. GEO pulling a travel trailer?

Bottom line: M4’s offer more mission versatility and are probably cheaper too.

**sniperdude411** · 16 May 05,, 17:57

M4's are ineed cheaper, because of the roller-delayed blowback in the mp-5.
Yes, I do think the M4 does have more versitality, but it lacks in CQB combat still, and is less controllable than the mp5.