Rise of the M-4 death of the MP-5?

**Bill** · 26 May 05,, 18:23

In MOUT, provided the ROE allows for it, one should always make their own entrance, rather than using pre-existing entrances, to enter uncleared buildings. One should also assume that all pre-existing windows and doors are potential booby traps.

On the windows, you want to stand back about six feet from the window so that you are hidden in the shadows of the room you're in. The last thing you ever want to do is silhouette yourself lest someone like me shoot you in the face for your troubles(MOUT engagements are usually at much closer ranges, so head shots are much easier for a sniper to execute). This is also why roofs are so dangerous. If you silhouette your head against the skyline you're extremely easy to spot, and you're presenting the last part of your body you ever want to be shot in to the enemy.

**sniperdude411** · 26 May 05,, 23:49

Nice, so using the fun way to get into a building is also the right way. Very, very nice.

**Repatriated Canuck** · 27 May 05,, 16:41

Originally Posted by sniperdude411

Nice, so using the fun way to get into a building is also the right way. Very, very nice.

My sentiments exactly

**sniperdude411** · 30 May 05,, 17:33

I once saw in a picture a very cool bumper sticker on an EOD truck. It said:
"Explosives: If they don't solve your problems, you aren't using enough"

**Officer of Engineers** · 30 May 05,, 17:55

I always like "If you see me running, try to keep up."

**sniperdude411** · 31 May 05,, 02:00

LOL, there's such a huge assortment of funny bumper stickers.
Speaking of which, when I get my own car, I'm going to put a "DO NOT TAILGATE" sticker on the back, and install an exhaust flamethrower (For this one, all you need is a car, a sparkplug, ignition wire and a switch. Install the spark plug into the last four or five inches of the tailpipe by drilling a hole that the plug can screw into easily. Attach the wire (this is regular insulated wire) to one side of the switch and to the spark plug. The other side of the switch is attached to the positive terminal on the battery. With the car running, simply hit the switch and watch the flames fly!!! Again be careful that no one is behind you! I have seen some of these flames go 20 feet!!).
A fool-roof, yet somewhat safe (If I use a short burst of flame) way of keeping a$$holes off your tail. They also cannot sue me because I warned them not to tailgate.

**leib10** · 17 Jul 05,, 19:09

Hey, I was wondering if any of you could post a link to a maintenance manual for the M16 series. I have an ambition to take that this apart nearly completely and clean it as thoroughly as possible, so maybe the thing wouldn't jam every 30 rounds.

**Bill** · 17 Jul 05,, 19:33

http://www.ajarmsbooksellers.com/cgi...ml?id=C6gMBChz

**leib10** · 17 Jul 05,, 19:39

Thank you.

**ak-dave** · 18 Jul 05,, 23:38

Some on-line resources.

Maintain an M16-Series Rifle

M16/A2 and M4

TM-9-1005-249-1

Bigger Hammer Net

Here is a PDF M-16/M-16A1 –10 operators manual.

**leib10** · 19 Jul 05,, 02:02

That's even better. Thanks.

**WildLomcevak** · 20 Jul 05,, 09:02

My military experience was in a cockpit, so I'm certainly not an expert on this topic, but I served on an entry team with the police department for four years- we carried Glock 23C's with 27's for backup, and were issued HK MP5/40's. Personally, I liked the .40 MP5 for our mission ...all ammo was interchangeable, and the heavier bullet and a bit more oomph inspired more confidence than the toylike 9mm. I never got the opportunity to fire the 10mm version, but the word was that they suffered from mechanical problems due to the higher pressures. The MP5/10/40 has been pretty much replaced by the UMP, from what I hear, but since I'm no longer in law enforcement I'm out of the loop. I do miss training with the MP5 in either caliber, not many guns are, to me, as much fun to shoot!

**dposcuro** · 21 Jul 05,, 01:09

The problem with the MP5 vs M4 is well....they don't compare.
One fires an intermediate rifle cartridge, the other fires a medium-low powered pistol cartridge. 1200 ft'lbs of energy versus 300-350ish. It's pretty obvious as to why most everyone is simply dropping the MP5 now.
Yet some people say that the M4 is "too big" or has too much recoil (wuh?).

Someone suggested, on the first or second page of this thread, of an MP5 chambered in .357 magnum. That was shot down quickly, with logic: Too much recoil, rimmed cartridge.

However, there is a cartridge that is perfect for the task. A cartridge that was fielded in WW2, but was either praised, or disliked depending upon how you viewed it. Cartridge? US .30 Carbine (7.62x33mm).
Consider:
1990 fps with 967 ft-lbs of energy
That is standard military ball loading with a obsolete round nose bullet, and typical powders nor optimized for the application. And as anyone who has fired an M1 Carbine will atest: Has very little recoil, no matter how you look at it, in a very light weight arm.
Police reports have noted it to be a caliber proven to reliably defeat level II-a kevlar. Again, with generic ammunition loaded to, or below 1940's military spec.

The most "energetic" loading found on this site: http://web4.integraonline.com/~bbroa...stic_Info.html
Records the .30 Carbine at 2200 fps with 1075 ft-lbs of energy by using a 100 grain bullet.

A new SMG loaded for .30 Carbine? Less recoil, less noise, less flash than an M4 with relatively close ft-lbs of energy. Much more power, and more range than ANY other SMG cartridge currently fielded.
Honestly, if you ask me, that sounds like the perfect cartridge.

**Terran empire** · 21 Jul 05,, 17:48

The Israelis use a SMG with .30 caliber they call it the Manal I think there is a relation ship between it and the Galil

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapo...gal/Magal.html

**leib10** · 21 Jul 05,, 21:06

Originally Posted by dposcuro

The problem with the MP5 vs M4 is well....they don't compare.
One fires an intermediate rifle cartridge, the other fires a medium-low powered pistol cartridge. 1200 ft'lbs of energy versus 300-350ish. It's pretty obvious as to why most everyone is simply dropping the MP5 now.
Yet some people say that the M4 is "too big" or has too much recoil (wuh?).

Someone suggested, on the first or second page of this thread, of an MP5 chambered in .357 magnum. That was shot down quickly, with logic: Too much recoil, rimmed cartridge.

However, there is a cartridge that is perfect for the task. A cartridge that was fielded in WW2, but was either praised, or disliked depending upon how you viewed it. Cartridge? US .30 Carbine (7.62x33mm).
Consider:
1990 fps with 967 ft-lbs of energy
That is standard military ball loading with a obsolete round nose bullet, and typical powders nor optimized for the application. And as anyone who has fired an M1 Carbine will atest: Has very little recoil, no matter how you look at it, in a very light weight arm.
Police reports have noted it to be a caliber proven to reliably defeat level II-a kevlar. Again, with generic ammunition loaded to, or below 1940's military spec.

The most "energetic" loading found on this site: http://web4.integraonline.com/~bbroa...stic_Info.html
Records the .30 Carbine at 2200 fps with 1075 ft-lbs of energy by using a 100 grain bullet.

A new SMG loaded for .30 Carbine? Less recoil, less noise, less flash than an M4 with relatively close ft-lbs of energy. Much more power, and more range than ANY other SMG cartridge currently fielded.
Honestly, if you ask me, that sounds like the perfect cartridge.

However, the .30 Carbine was notoriously lacking in stopping power, even at relatively close range. I knew a guy who was in Vietnam who had to shoot this one Vietcong 6 times with an M1 Carbine before he finally fell.