Weird Cartridge Nomenclature

Prof · 12-06-2009, 19:29 PM

OK. Let's start. The .38 American handgun calibers are mostly .356-.358 except for the .38 S&W, which, as noted in another thread, is .360-.361. The bore diameter of Civil War era .36s was .356-.358. About .36. Sounds reasonable. Of course, expecting any of the .38s to be ~.38 would be unreasonable. The .357 magnum is .356-.358, so it breaks with crazy tradition.

Now. The .44/40 cartridge held a .44 (actually, .427) caliber bullet & the cartridge traditionally held 40gr of black powder. However, the .30/30 was a .30 (well, ~.308-.311) caliber round developed after the advent of smokeless powder & was never commercially loaded with black powder as far as I know. So, given all that, what was the caliber of the bullet in the .38/40 cartridge? If you guessed .40 (well, ~.41), you're right. A little disturbed, but right. Why on earth didn't Winchester call it the .40/40? You got me.

Now, go wild.

Prof

gunnut · 12-06-2009, 21:02 PM

German 7.92mm X 57mm is called 8mm Mauser. Well, which is it? Is it 7.92mm or 8mm in diameter?

Prof · 12-06-2009, 21:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

German 7.92mm X 57mm is called 8mm Mauser. Well, which is it? Is it 7.92mm or 8mm in diameter?

At least it's close. How 'bout the .30-06, the .303 Enfield, the .30/30, the .308, the 7.62x54mmR & the .32acp? All same-same @ ~.31 caliber. Are they all caliper-clumsy or just nuts?

Prof

roffelskates · 12-07-2009, 01:14 AM

45 colt vs 45 Colt Automatic Pistol.
223 when it really is a 22

Prof · 12-07-2009, 09:53 AM

Welll... Here we go again. The .22LR, that lovely cartridge, is .223 cal. The .22WMR (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) is .224. They are not interchangeable in .22WMR guns. Why? Mostly due to cartridge taper, although the teeny little 1/1000" diameter difference gets into the act. Question is, why on earth did Winchester, & why would the firearms manufacturers, tolerate a newly-introduced .22 (WMR) round that didn't allow the use of .22 shorts, longs & long rifles? I mean, this was a while back, somewhat before everyone on Earth expected corporate executives to be lyin' cheatin' thieves. Seems like a really dumb decision. Any thoughts?

The .45 colt vs .45acp has less of a craziness problem. Bullet diameter (lead bullet; subtract ~.001" for jacketed) is .454 vs .452. You could pretty much swap'em. The big difference is in cartridge length. The Army wanted a grip-fed semiauto & you'd have to have pretty unusual hands to hold something like a 1911 in .45 Colt.

Prof

highsea · 12-07-2009, 14:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prof

Now. The .44/40 cartridge held a .44 (actually, .427) caliber bullet & the cartridge traditionally held 40gr of black powder. However, the .30/30 was a .30 (well, ~.308-.311) caliber round developed after the advent of smokeless powder & was never commercially loaded with black powder as far as I know.

The .30-30 was originally called the .30 WCF.

A few months after Winchester brought it out, Marlin copied it and introduced it as the .30-30 for the 1893 rifle, using the standard convention of the weight in grains of the powder charge, only this time it was smokeless powder.

Winchester kept the .30 WCF on the headstamp up until the '40's, then changed it to .30-30. Today we call it the .30-30 Winchester, but it was actually Marlin that introduced it under that name.

gunnut · 12-07-2009, 14:17 PM

Why are rounds designed by John Browning called "automatic COLT pistol?"

Ever noticed that most of Browning designs don't carry his name? Colt 1911; Winchester 1892; ACP instead of ABP (automatic Browning pistol)...etc.

Here's a tangent: one of the most famous guns to carry Browning's name was actually not his design, the Browning Hi-Power. It was completed by Dieudonné Saive at Fabrique Nationale based on Browning's design.

highsea · 12-07-2009, 14:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

Why are rounds designed by John Browning called "automatic COLT pistol?"

Ever noticed that most of Browning designs don't carry his name? Colt 1911; Winchester 1892; ACP instead of ABP (automatic Browning pistol)...etc.

Here's a tangent: one of the most famous guns to carry Browning's name was actually not his design, the Browning Hi-Power. It was completed by Dieudonné Saive at Fabrique Nationale based on Browning's design.

Because he designed them for Colt.

The High-Power design was started by JMB, but finished after his death.

He designed guns for Remington, Winchester, Colt, FN.

The Browning Arms Company wasn't formed until after his death. He never really did much in the way of manufacturing on his own, but he was a design genius.

gunnut · 12-07-2009, 14:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

Because he designed them for Colt.

He also marketed them in Europe through FN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

The High-Power design was started by JMB, but finished after his death.

He designed guns for Remington, Winchester, Colt, FN.

But only the one that he didn't finish carried his name. Isn't that weird?

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

The Browning Arms Company wasn't formed until after his death. He never really did much in the way of manufacturing on his own, but he was a design genius.

He was GOD of firearm designs. No man before or since has equaled his genius. I don't think anyone could ever equal his prolific output in firearm designs.

highsea · 12-07-2009, 15:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

He also marketed them in Europe through FN.

I think FN actually produced them before Colt did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunnut

But only the one that he didn't finish carried his name. Isn't that weird?

Don't forget the BAR.

gunnut · 12-07-2009, 15:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

I think FN actually produced them before Colt did.
Don't forget the BAR.

That's right, the BAR! One of the finest automatic rifles of all time. I would love to have one, or even fire one, in full auto mode.

Doomarias · 12-07-2009, 15:09 PM

or the ma-deuce

highsea · 12-07-2009, 15:10 PM

Dillinger's weapon of choice (BAR).

Or was that Bonnie and Clyde?

Doomarias · 12-07-2009, 15:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highsea

Dillinger's weapon of choice (BAR).

Yeah, he sawed the barrel down to make it more handy.

highsea · 12-07-2009, 15:15 PM

^^^ Thinking that was Clyde Barrow though, not Dillinger...

Dillinger liked Tommy guns, IIRC.

12-06-2009, 19:29 PM	#1 (permalink)
Prof *Military Professional* Join Date: 10-24-09 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 850 Country:	Weird Cartridge Nomenclature OK. Let's start. The .38 American handgun calibers are mostly .356-.358 except for the .38 S&W, which, as noted in another thread, is .360-.361. The bore diameter of Civil War era .36s was .356-.358. About .36. Sounds reasonable. Of course, expecting any of the .38s to be ~.38 would be unreasonable. The .357 magnum is .356-.358, so it breaks with crazy tradition. Now. The .44/40 cartridge held a .44 (actually, .427) caliber bullet & the cartridge traditionally held 40gr of black powder. However, the .30/30 was a .30 (well, ~.308-.311) caliber round developed after the advent of smokeless powder & was never commercially loaded with black powder as far as I know. So, given all that, what was the caliber of the bullet in the .38/40 cartridge? If you guessed .40 (well, ~.41), you're right. A little disturbed, but right. Why on earth didn't Winchester call it the .40/40? You got me. Now, go wild. Prof

12-06-2009, 21:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
gunnut *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 01-27-06 Location: DPRK, Democratik People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 17,410 Country:	German 7.92mm X 57mm is called 8mm Mauser. Well, which is it? Is it 7.92mm or 8mm in diameter? __________________ "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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12-07-2009, 01:14 AM	#4 (permalink)
roffelskates Regular Join Date: 05-03-09 Posts: 110	45 colt vs 45 Colt Automatic Pistol. 223 when it really is a 22

12-07-2009, 09:53 AM	#5 (permalink)
Prof *Military Professional* Join Date: 10-24-09 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 850 Country:	Welll... Here we go again. The .22LR, that lovely cartridge, is .223 cal. The .22WMR (Winchester Magnum Rimfire) is .224. They are not interchangeable in .22WMR guns. Why? Mostly due to cartridge taper, although the teeny little 1/1000" diameter difference gets into the act. Question is, why on earth did Winchester, & why would the firearms manufacturers, tolerate a newly-introduced .22 (WMR) round that didn't allow the use of .22 shorts, longs & long rifles? I mean, this was a while back, somewhat before everyone on Earth expected corporate executives to be lyin' cheatin' thieves. Seems like a really dumb decision. Any thoughts? The .45 colt vs .45acp has less of a craziness problem. Bullet diameter (lead bullet; subtract ~.001" for jacketed) is .454 vs .452. You could pretty much swap'em. The big difference is in cartridge length. The Army wanted a grip-fed semiauto & you'd have to have pretty unusual hands to hold something like a 1911 in .45 Colt. Prof

12-07-2009, 14:17 PM	#7 (permalink)
gunnut *Senior Contributor* Join Date: 01-27-06 Location: DPRK, Democratik People's Republik of Kalifornia Posts: 17,410 Country:	Why are rounds designed by John Browning called "automatic COLT pistol?" Ever noticed that most of Browning designs don't carry his name? Colt 1911; Winchester 1892; ACP instead of ABP (automatic Browning pistol)...etc. Here's a tangent: one of the most famous guns to carry Browning's name was actually not his design, the Browning Hi-Power. It was completed by Dieudonné Saive at Fabrique Nationale based on Browning's design.

12-07-2009, 15:09 PM	#12 (permalink)
Doomarias Contributor Join Date: 05-15-08 Location: Bronx, NY Posts: 430 Country:	or the ma-deuce

12-07-2009, 15:10 PM	#13 (permalink)
highsea *Defense Professional* Join Date: 12-10-04 Location: Center for Urban Underacheivers Posts: 5,511	Dillinger's weapon of choice (BAR). Or was that Bonnie and Clyde?

12-07-2009, 15:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
highsea *Defense Professional* Join Date: 12-10-04 Location: Center for Urban Underacheivers Posts: 5,511	^^^ Thinking that was Clyde Barrow though, not Dillinger... Dillinger liked Tommy guns, IIRC.

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